Game over

[5thHorseman]

Hopping around in the rebel-controlled area is like doing 20 or 30 runs in one run focussing on fights and reducing all the boring event, weapon and scrap grinding... the Elite Fighters are all different between different runs, and you have to react differently depending on whether all your shots missed or just most of them...

If the events are boring to you but you find the rebel elites to be super varied, then we truly are talking at cross purposes.

I wager a guess most people dismissing a super high score by saying "it's just grinding" have actually never tried to get one and/or are intimitated by the rebel fleet. It may be a bit boring with a Zoltan ship or a 12-shot pre-ignited ship - I wouldn't know -, but still worth a try going for the high score.

I have tried it and I'm not intimidated by the rebel fleet usually. There are plenty of times I'll hit the exit and then hit a couple extra beacons and then go back to the exit, facing a rebel I woefully outclass just to go to the next sector. Seeking them out though, as a goal unto themselves? No thanks. If my ship can't stand up to them, then it's not worth the work because you can't face hundreds of them in a row. If my ship can handle them, then it's BORING.

I don't quite understand why such a contemptuous attitude abounds towards achieving a high score. I maintain that the high score is the most prominent and comparable feature of the game, bar none. Second come achievements, and then the other scores like beacons visited, crew members hired etc. All the other "personal achievements" are a bit vain, like finishing Monkey Island with the least number of mouse clicks or with your monitor turned upside down - interesting, but not really something to brag about.

I am not contemptuous toward you or anybody who gets such a high score. It is impressive. I just have no desire to do it myself and don't really understand why anybody would go through that much work to achieve it. It's like people who play Donkey Kong all day every day to beat the world record. Sure it's impressive, but I got better things to do with my time.

Anyway, while I think the evidence is glaringly obvious that the high score is something that is encouraged to care about, it's also kinda obvious that many/most players totally disregard the high score, so that's that.

I do agree with this, but don't agree that it's a problem. If they truly wanted the score to reflect game play, they'd change the way it is calculated. But that would be a pretty hefty task considering all the possible strategies.

For me personally the only goal in the game is to beat the flagship, and lately my goal is to beat it in style. 0 damage, for example, or in just 2 volleys, or without a teleporter or cloak or things like that. I notice the score when the game's over but usually it's to laugh at how poorly it reflects on how much I enjoyed or how well I did in that run.

[shadowcrust]

First, a little nitpicking, then some arguments - but I guess I should jump out of this sector before I get too repetitive

1) It's too repetitive
If the rebels have overtaken a sector, the Elite Fighter builds are randomly generated for each beacon. There's some fixed values (number of crew members is only dependent on sector, and maybe also how many energy bars they get, I never counted), and there's variation in the number of shield bubbles, level of medbay, oxygen, cockpit, teleporter presence and, most importantly, weapons. You can luck out with opponents with three (maybe even four?) rocket launchers or three (maybe even four?) Burst Lasers Mk II. To get two exactly same builds of Elite Fighters in a sector is quite improbable. The only static thing is that if you save + quit and then continue, the previously generated ships will reappear at each beacon. But even the same ship as opponent can bring different results, depending on your shooting accuracy and into which room they will teleport.

2) It takes no skill
Taking on the rebel fleet forces you to minimise all losses. In the event-driven game, you can make 10 mistakes and still repair everything, get new missiles, drones and crew members at the next beacon. Not much of a challenge and not exciting, unless you actually don't find any ships, no shops and no good events for a long time. Then you have to cope with very limited resources for a time or die, just like with engaging the rebel fleet. Exciting.
Personally, I wouldn't call it skill, it's more knowledge of the game and having a strategy. You need both for shieldless runs and friends and for the rebel fleet. There's not too much skill involved in firing your weapons and sending your crew mates around in the ship once you know what to do. Much more (finger) skill is involved in playing Donkey Kong - maybe that's why these guys are famous!

3) You need a super ship
I guess it's true that a very well equipped ship makes engaging Elite Fighters easier, with an overwhelmingly good ship maybe even unchallenging. But if fighting waves of Elite Fighters is no challenge anymore, then also any other ship, including the flagship can be defeated without any trouble. Are you quitting such a game before going to the flagship, because it is boring and unchallenging? Or are you exploiting your super powers, cackling madly?

I think I may have been a bit dismissive regarding "personal achievements". I think some are kinda cool, but they are outside of the game's scope. There is no in-game reward for these achievements. And it's making your own rules, like playing football, but you may also use your hands, or just one foot to hit the ball. It's no longer the "real" thing and becomes uncomparable, you created your own game. That's also why I don't play mods, as they make the official and comparable game into something new and different, which is only comparable in its own league. Most people are interested in the winner of the Champions League and not in the winner of the Calvin Games

It's not half the fun doing something if there's no competition. That's why i'm discussing here to show you guys the light I think it's human nature to compete and to compare and to rank. That's what all sports are about and all competitions, and everything that can be ranked will be ranked, simple as that. FTL is made to be so totally rankable, only thing missing is an online high score leaderboard or something. However, if there's no one else around to beat your scores, it actually becomes a bit boring. Not so much engaging the rebel fleet, but not being able to compete with anyone is the boring part in my opinion. That's the main reason I've stopped playing, and with all the free time I can engage the poster fleet instead of the rebel fleet

[itg]

1) It's too repetitive

I think one of the issues here is that the game becomes totally static when farming the rebels. A big part of the fun of the game is deciding how to upgrade your ship to keep up with increasingly dangerous enemies, and that's just gone when farming the rebels.

Also, if you're going for a high score and the variety in the rebel fleet matters at all, you probably ought to restart and get a better ship. Who wants to burn 40 hours on one run if there's any chance of failure, when you could just win the game, then spend 90 minutes on a new run to (hopefully) get a more reliable setup?

2) It takes no skill

I think if you're going for a high score, the best use of your time is to keep doing normal runs until you get a ship that's so powerful it really does take no skill to farm the rebels.

3) You need a super ship

If making it to the flagship so easy it's boring, at least it's over in 2 hours. You might enjoy "exploiting your superpowers, cackling madly" for a while, but that kind of enjoyment wears off quickly.

Regarding "personal achievements," I don't see the problem with "making your own rules," and I don't see them as outside the game's scope. They're not "uncomparable," since anyone with the game can go for them, although I'll grant mods can have this problem unless they become widely known. There may be no in-game reward for these achievements, but you can share them and get recognition from the community, which many people find more valuable (including you, I would guess, based on the length of this discussion).

I would agree that competition can be fun. If you no one else finds the high score competition entertaining, why not find something else to compete over? I, for one, might enjoy a low score competition. The goal would be to win on normal with the lowest possible score. It's probably best to track each ship separately, since some ships (*cough* Carnelian) would have a large advantage. This competition would force you to constantly enter tense battles (though you would need avoid many of them to keep your score down) and it would actively discourage grinding.

[English Narwhal]

Those scores are cool, but 12 Skill Masteries is impossible, and 1501 jumps would imply about 241 jumps over 7 sectors.
EDIT:
On your most beacons explored, that number implies you've explored almost all of every sector, even the final boss sector. How is that?

[itg]

I think each level gained counts as one skill mastery, so 12 masteries is the maximum possible (2 levels each of the 4 stations skills, combat, and repair). I base this on the fact my record is 6 masteries, and there's no way I got anyone fully leveled up in 6 different skills--especially since the record holder is a mantis who couldn't possibly have had any levels in repair.

[shadowcrust]

There are 6 different skills (piloting, engines, weapons, shields, combat and repair) and each skill has two levels. So if you two-star all skills you get 12 in skill masteries. I did that several times for several crew members, but only the first one (Vincent) is recorded. Most fun is getting a Zoltan two stars in combat or a Mantis in repair.

The 122 beacons included a detour through the hidden sector, but I won't be spoiling more - it was done with the Shivan, ranked fourth in the All Ships high score.

For the number of jumps, I refer you to the original post of that run. How is your high scoring getting along?

[shadowcrust]

As for the low score competition, it would be totally contraire to my normal playing style, so it may be fun, although I guess it all boils down to what is the minimum number of upgrades (if any) you need for beating the flagship... but whoever is motivated can set up a post with the ranking sheet for all ships on both difficulties, and the overall lowest score. That sheet can then be updated when screenshots are posted. I'd say only scores lower than 3000 are considered, and only the three lowest-ranking ships will be listed for each type and difficulty.

[English Narwhal]

There are 6 different skills (piloting, engines, weapons, shields, combat and repair) and each skill has two levels. So if you two-star all skills you get 12 in skill masteries. I did that several times for several crew members, but only the first one (Vincent) is recorded. Most fun is getting a Zoltan two stars in combat or a Mantis in repair.

The 122 beacons included a detour through the hidden sector, but I won't be spoiling more - it was done with the Shivan, ranked fourth in the All Ships high score.

For the number of jumps, I refer you to the original post of that run. How is your high scoring getting along?

Eh, I'm only at 30K so far. I'll catch up. Eventually.

[shadowcrust]

What ship and what difficulty?

[Twinge]

I don't quite understand why such a contemptuous attitude abounds towards achieving a high score.

Because it's not interesting, in short. There is no limit to how high a score can become beyond how long you want to grind Rebel Elites. It's also extremely repetitive, takes a long time, and doesn't have tense moments throughout. Compare to Spleunky high scores - also repetitive and time-consuming (so I still don't enjoy them myself), but highly skill-based and any moment in a 7 hour run something can go wrong.

All the other "personal achievements" are a bit vain, like finishing Monkey Island with the least number of mouse clicks or with your monitor turned upside down - interesting, but not really something to brag about.

You're allowed your opinion, but the rest of the community disagrees. Normal difficulty on its own isn't challenging or interesting enough at the highest level, so people find ways to make it tougher. I would agree that trying to enforce custom rules in a multiplayer game is mostly nonsense, but it's quite appropriate for single-player titles, and FTL is far from unique in this regard.

I'll continue comparing to Spelunky - there's no in-game achievement or score for doing an eggplant run, but that doesn't mean it's not one of the most prestigious and impressive things you can do in the game.

Personally, I wouldn't call it skill, it's more knowledge of the game and having a strategy.

I mean, I suppose you can make that distinction and say all turn-based games require strategy rather than skill, but it's a pretty pointless argument. In general usage, 'skill' refers to both the mental and physical ability rather than only the latter.

I would agree that competition can be fun. If you no one else finds the high score competition entertaining, why not find something else to compete over? I, for one, might enjoy a low score competition.

The fundamental flaw with FTL's score (when playing normally and not farming) is that lower scores are more impressive than higher scores, because higher scores mean you had more scrap and an easier run because of it. Low-score has its own problems, but I would agree it's a much more interesting competition. Speedruns are another option, though we've already mentioned the hardware limitation there. Beyond that, there's win streaking and challenge runs.