[MOD][WIP] FTL Infinite Space

[5thHorseman]

Unlike UltraMantis, is see zero benefit in adjusting Is to latest FTL patch itself - its highly unlikely, that we will see any more official FTL updates. OTOH, CE is constantly updated, and become de facto unofficial patch. I understand, that some may not like it and OPT out to use vanilla FTL only - well, it's their loss. After all, when someone want to OPT out from, lets say, One and Only (tm) mod manager, he is cut from 99% of mods, too.

I think you overestimate the number of people who use CE versus Vanilla. I use CE when I feel like playing CE. I use Vanilla (plus a single mod) when I feel like playing any other mod in existence. There is no single mod that is to the level of "Unofficial Patch" and I seriously don't think there will be.

And as to FTL not getting more updates, that's actually an argument FOR updating IS to it. Once you've done it, it'll work forever.

If someone would be interested in making IS compatible with FTL vanilla latest patch, it would be done dozen of times, already (UltraMantis, looking at you ). I haven't seen a crowd working on it, though.

Not to throw your words back in your face, but I don't see anybody working on integrating IS into CE. Lots of talk, though...

[Estel]

And as to FTL not getting more updates, that's actually an argument FOR updating IS to it. Once you've done it, it'll work forever.

This is argument only if you want to "do it and forget it", eternally. If you're aiming for quality, not actually "marking as done", compatibility with FTL official patch is much inferior way of doing things.

Not to throw your words back in your face, but I don't see anybody working on integrating IS into CE. Lots of talk, though...

Last time I checked, it was official plan of IS creator - see his post one page ago. I agree on "talking" part though - many people would like to "demand" work done on their favorite setup, without actually getting hands dirty.

Well, to some degree, I'm one of "those" people - I actually stated, that I don't have free time reserves, to get into FTL modding. that's why I've done what I could on my free time - contacted developers of active mods with each other and presented some suggestions, that, in my opinion, result in best time spent/effects ratio for actual developer (of IS). Here, nothing beat CE integration, with its amount of content already available to be put into good use.

AIUI, Is creator share this view, seeing opportunities, that using quality CE content in IS brings - I could throw some quotes here, but I'll leave pleasure of finding and re-reading them, to you

/Estel

[kartoFlane]

BTW, I'm surprised, that no one did replacement for IS, if re-creating it from scratch is *that* easy as you describe it.

*shrugs*

That took less than 5 minutes... From here you can build IS from scratch, with new content.
As I was saying, the only real problem is separating the rest of IS content from junk stuff.

[UltraMantis]

My interest in Infinite Space is removing the notice in the Master Mod List that says it's not compatible with the latest version of FTL. A lot of people were maybe not heartbroken, but certainly dissapointed that updating FTL broke compatibility.

Though it may be awkwardly created by todays standards, let's not forget that it is one of the oldest FTL mods, and is still very popular today. The modding community has come a long way in one year, and i guess we all learned a lot about how to mod and break FTL. The "embedded" system rooms in the upcoming CE release show that we are still learning.

It's unfortunate that updating FTL sometimes creates new problems when it's supposed to solve old ones. Regardless, it's recommended that the latest version is used. Steam users who do not manually block updates don't even have a say in the matter, and autoupdating is one reason many users prefer Steam. I can see no sensible reason why making Infinite Space compatible with FTL would be unwelcome.

Latest patch vs. latest patch.
Do not mix patches and DLCs. FTL gets periodical updates that solve some compatibility issues, create new ones (sadly), add new options, sometimes alter gameplay and fix bugs. Mostly they fix bugs. One further patch is already planned and there will probably be a few more following. Unless you count extra options as new content there is no new content released for FTL. This game was never advertised as a game that will feature new bells and whistles with each update. The patches serve to make the game as bug free and compatible as possible.
Assuming that v1.3.03 is the final version is ignorant, and suggesting that a mod should be frozen to make it compatible only with version 1.03.1 seems like complete madness.

As for DLC. No DLC was ever announced. Ditto for FTL2. There is no word, we simply don't know. Mods have added much to FTL and some comprehensive TCs function almost like DLC. Estel, if you like FTL+CE so much it makes the vanilla game pointless, i will not argue. But it's still wrong to call CE a patch or version of FTL. It is a collection of mods big enough and good enough to be DLC.
It is generally in everyone's interest to have compatible mods. Sometimes it's not important, other times it's impossible because of the way the patching system works.

I wanted to steer the discusion back to the subject of having a working version of Infinite Space, since for a few pages the talk was centered on the problems and differences between Infinite Space and Captain's Edition.

[Estel]

One further patch is already planned (...)
Assuming that v1.3.03 is the final version is ignorant, and suggesting that a mod should be frozen to make it compatible only with version 1.03.1 seems like complete madness.

I gladly acknowledge that I'm (was) ignorant, then If you have confirmed information about official patch coming to FTL, its great - considering time since last patch + developers activity, It looks(/ed) like FTl is quite "over" from developer's side. At least wide ETA (like, +- 6 months) is known? Do you have any source of this information, or was this result of private discussion?

Estel, if you like FTL+CE so much it makes the vanilla game pointless, i will not argue. But it's still wrong to call CE a patch or version of FTL./quote]

That's why I used words "unofficial patch" - many gaming communities have projects like CE becoming unofficial, yet, widely acknowledged "patches" (see Fallout, Planescape: Torment, Kotor, and countless more). It is exactly the thing that official developers are *not* going to do - expanding game with new content, while preserving overall gameplay idea and feeling (so-called vanilla+ experience).

I see huge benefits in important mods being based on CE, just like almost every current mod is based to work with (unofficial!) mod manager's logic. Just as the latter streamlined mods installation, way of packaging, etc, the former streamline additional content, making few major pillars:
1. Re-balanced arsenal
2. re-balanced drones
3. Additional enemy types (think battle-stations, carriers, etc)

...available as "expected to be installed in normal circumstances" for other mods, too. It saves *much* time for developers - either spend on integrating separate content "borrowed" from other mods, or on creating own, often duplicating, content - and result in more joy and consistent experience for end-users (gaming people).
---

Of course, others can disagree, and I'm not trying to force anyone into thinking likewise. Hoever, IMO, pros are so obvious, that developers *will* choose to integrate efforts, which in turn, will make even skeptical "end users" to accept situation and enjoy.

After all, this was how great "unofficial patches" for game I mentioned earlier were born - in 99% of time, it was some great, single modification, that spawned other's people work to get based on it, to mutual "profit". There always were malcontents, that were dissatisfied by consolidation - but I'm equally sure, that if devs (modders) would listen to them, for those games, we would be still in limbo of hundred small, incompatible mods, without hope for content bringing patch-like experience. At this point, no one really cares its unofficial, as it bring much more than official ones ever did, could, or planned to.

/Estel

// Edit

And BTW - I don't know for others, but personally, upon hearing "DLC", I'm getting revolt syndromes. This, erm, "business model" was so spoiled by missuses (*cough* EA *cough*) - like poor, pretensional content, even worse price/quality ratio, etc - than I just got trembles upon hearing it.

So, a world of reminder - in "good old days" game *patches* were also, often, bringing much new content to the game. Some developers practice this nowadays, too - see changelogs for The Witcher (doesn't matter which part), for example. summing it up, additional content doesn't need to be "DLC", by any means, and patch - official or not - is as good and justified name.

[UltraMantis]

Regarding CE.
I understand what you meant by "patch" now. I would personally not object to treating it as a base game (or enhanced base game) and would not mind trying to make a mod compatible with it. After all, it would only mean more people would play the mod.

Regarding DLC.
Crap, not crap. Evil, not evil. I don't know. It can be abused for a quick buck, but it can also serve as a source of income for deserving developers. I have read some criticism of the SOTS The Pit DLC, but i still want to buy it. I like the base game and don't mind spending a few extra bucks for moar stuff. Basically, if the game is good enough, and the DLC is being developed by the same people, then i will usually be inclined to buy it. Game maker's income is a weird thing to sort out morally. It's also difficult to establish the value of a game. Some of my friends whine that 10$ is far too much for FTL, i don't even try to argue. I just mention that 4 or 6 dollars is hardly a difference and leave the conversation at that. I judge a game by the amout of time it's still enjoablye and how close it comes to hitting that "sweet spot" for me.

The only reason i even mentioned DLC is because it has been asked for often enough (for FTL) and because i wanted to clear up the patch vs DLC confusion, which i now see didn't exist.
I understand what you mean about community efforts surpassing what the original developers had in mind. Project Reality for BF2 is probably the finest example, and some KSP community works are part of the official game already (along with several modders). Another game that is virtualy useless without a community "unofficialy official" patch is Vampire The Masquearde - Bloodlines. MOO3 also lived an extended life thanks to patches (though in the end it was not enough).
Is Captains Edition on it's way of becoming something like that for FTL. Maybe. It's a grand effort and similarly to Infinite Space, irreplaceable for some players. Probably yes.

Regarding patches.
No priviledged info, but in the past the devs have collected bug reports or other issues from the Tech Support forum and GetHelp, and a patch was being developed more or less constantly. No ETA, it was just released when enough work had been done and the new version was stable enough to release.
This was the case with all previous patches and Matthew has posted in the Tech Support forum several times hinting that certain fixes will appear in the next patch. So based on that info, one patch is definetly coming.
As for the future, well as new hardware comes out and OSs are updated, FTL will need to stay compatible. That plus the fact that even today, some bugs are being discovered and that some drivers are still causing problems with wonky OpenGL support makes me think that we will see periodic updates.
As for content.... the only ones that know are them. and they aren't telling.

[Estel]

Now, forum coudl really use a "Thank" button, to avoid such psot as this one I'm writing, but... I don't only agree with every single sentence, word and punctuation ( ) in your last post - consensus - but I'm also thankful for detailed reply about FTL patch, so couldn't just pass it by without writing a few words.

That said, we (OK, mainly me) derailed IS thread enough, so lets leave it in anticipation for - hopefully - posts from IS developer, when he will make some progress (or require help from modding gurus here).

/Estel

[ElectronicBacon]

Is there any chance that you could include the game's vanilla sectors as well? Endless deep space gets boring after a while...

Unfortunately not.

[Vas]

Is there any chance that you could include the game's vanilla sectors as well? Endless deep space gets boring after a while...

Unfortunately not.

I skipped much of the topic, to much to read right now but I did just notice this. I just thought of one sort of way you could add the main game back in to end the endless space. When you reach the sector jump point, the option to jump to the next sector gives you 1. Random. 2. The Last Stand. Would that work?

[dalolorn]

I skipped much of the topic, to much to read right now but I did just notice this. I just thought of one sort of way you could add the main game back in to end the endless space. When you reach the sector jump point, the option to jump to the next sector gives you 1. Random. 2. The Last Stand. Would that work?

No. But it could return you to whatever sector you were in before you started traveling through IS sectors. Seeing as IS starts in sector 1...