Subset Games Forum

Just some thoughts about the ship balancing changes made in this mod- I haven't used all of them yet:

Nisos seems now superior to the Osprey, with a nice balance between rapid strike potential for early sectors (the machine gun missile launcher is a beautiful beast when you need to knock out a system right now) and potential firepower late game. Giving the Osprey a 4 shot laser seems like a buff, but there's a lot more potential for those "Stealth B moments" waiting to charge up early on, especially if you run into missiles and ships that start running away. Possibly, this was a change made for thematic reasons, with a cumbersome but eventually powerful cruiser.

Zoltan A also seems to be dramatically buffed with the "ignore 1 shield" augment, as well as a missile swarm. It's a harsher universe out there now, so it seems reasonable.

Zoltan B, however, without the ion field or starting shields feels a much less reliable choice than it's brother ship. The zoltan shield is going to take some punishment while your ion/beam combo charges. You also even need to upgrade weapons before you can use them together, so potential rocky start without too much to look forward to.

The Red-Tail seems still a solid ship with 1 less shot, but a quicker firing rate, but only 3 shots total probably means it's been nerfed overall as you are more dependent on additional firepower earlier.

The Kestrel has been nerfed significantly with both its missile and laser inferior to vanilla. Of course it used to be a very strong choice, but now it feels a little light on damage. Being able to make fuel is a nice bonus I guess, but I don't think it compensates for losing a power bar and a laser shot.

Stealth B: I very much like the obviously in-order buff. While still being very vulnerable,you now have enough firepower to end the universe, making it a rewarding, if still nerve-biting early game ship.

Slug A: Massively buffed, with twin 2 shield-piercing, crew-murdering lasers and still as much normal laser power as the Kestrel to boot.

Rock B: Significantly buffed with the amazingly satisfying and devastating artillery laser (the events where you are sipping tea or coffee on the bridge as you nuke planets are amazing), but still with the same problems to solve as vanilla. (No doors, no reliable way to take down shields/no teleporter to combo with the fire bomb etc.)

The CE ship load outs are something I have been wanting to discuss for a while. Personally I think they are an integral part of CE, whether or not Sleeper thinks they are "canon" or not. I don't think the Vanilla load outs work as we'll with CE and therefore I believe the CE load outs should be canon. They don't all have to be balanced but what I like about the CE load outs is they really offer a greater variety of play styles than vanilla. Here are my personal, opinions on all the ship load outs. Read only what you care to...

Kestrel A: Not nerfed at all, it matches the vanilla load out quite well. Like in vanilla the Kestrel A is possibly the most balanced ship with a "reasonably" good missile and laser weapon. A balanced ship is a good ship, which keeps the kestrel as my favorite and my go-to ship. (Love the fuel recycler!!! Totally makes sense. Other good starting augs would be Adv. FTL Navigation or FTL Recharge Booster, but the fuel recycler is pretty good)
Kestrel B: I like how the Red-Tail is still highly a gun-slinger ship. The Auto-Lasers are uber fun times. I like that they need a little support from the old laser or other weapons to be useful as well. Auto lasers still are, in terms of shots per a certain time, the worst in their power class, but I guess their usefulness. I have to ask though... Why 3.5 seconds for the MkII instead of just 3 seconds? ( I like the idea of the Red-Tail being a smuggler ship, Rebel paint job and all, it would be great if it started with a Cargo Teleporter)

Stealth A: Very close to Vanilla still, it's a powerhouse early on that requires upgrades to be useful later
Stealth B: I like that the Mapping computer gives it a slightly different play style from the Stealth A by requiring drones, the Naginata doesn't have as much shield piercing ability as the Glaive, but the Titan missile creates a nice alternative,
definitely ships for quickly destroying you enemies, no prolonged fights here

Mantis A: Not much changed, no direct damage anymore, but the Big Bomb is funner than the small bomb
Mantis B: It's still the Mantis B... Has gotten a slight boost defensively and a slight nerf offensively
I wish there was a way to make the Mantis B start with no weapons system and a level 2 Teleporter

Engi A: Seems slightly more "brutish" with the slow charging ion and hull ripper drone
Engi B: Seems slightly buffed, the AI Avatar Generator is the best thing that could have happened to this ship
I long for an Engi ship that uses only drones... But not in CE

Federation Cruiser: I don't think anything has been changed... I'm not sure what fedaykin is talking about
Can't wait for "wingmen" for the Federation cruiser

Slug A: wasn't buffed until the targeting jammer which just helps to make it less frustrating early on, I love the light lasers as replacements for the breach bomb, but I REALLY MISS THE ANTI-BIO BEAM. I really wish it were back, especially because it is necessary for the Disintegration Ray achievement. Perhaps you could add it back in and replace the Light Laser II's with Light Laser I's as a compromise? Or replace the Dual Laser with something that requires missiles for damage? Maybe having 2 light lasers would slightly nerf it and make it more dependent on other weaponry. (I don't think light laser Is pierce 2 shields do they?). The fact that you can't power all weapons at the same time makes the ship balanced though.
Slug B: Truly a classic slug ship, the Internal Effector is fun, the Heal Cluster a Bomb is almost broken and the Baal mine launcher is really nice to have as a replacement for the Artemis, watch your missiles and this ship is broken, but It just feels so perfect for slugs, especially with the ability to break truces

Rock A: The Ammo manufacturer doesn't buff this ship too much but gives it more practicality than in Vanilla, it is no longer a necessity to get rid of your missile weapons and convert to lasers, which is awesome and finally allows the Rock A to have its unique missile barge play style
Rock B: I like they heavy artillery canon, it seems very Brutish like a rock ship should be, the fire bomb I would actually be better than the big fire bomb in a way since it charges faster but yes it's a shame there is no teleporter to pair it with, it would be very interesting to convert it into a pyro ship, but it doesn't seem right to give it a fire beam or a Teleporter. That would be too different from vanilla.

Zoltan A: The Ion Field Generator is like a third weapon! It is undeniably broken early on, but sort of necessary since the new Zoltan A has very limited shield piercing capabilities, and the ogre doesn't damage systems well. It is similar to the Stealth Cruisers.
Zoltan B: This ship is actually just as reliable than the Zoltan A, the ion weapon requires power, but the Pernarch can do reasonable damage without even taking out all shields. The lack of shields is bad compared to the Zoltan A, but considering it has been buffed offensively compared to its vanilla load out, that should make up for it. I find it nice that it is perfect for enticing early surrenders from enemies.

Crystal A: Can now be used as a crew killing ship too if you use it right, it's pretty powerful just like both crystal ships were in vanilla
Crystal B: The 3 shield piercing Light Laser equivalent crystal is just a convenience, this ship is just so broken you can't even fix it...
As far as Crystal Vengeance goes, it's ok on the Crystal A, but on the Crystal B it is really bad, I have had it kill my boarding crew sometimes by hitting the room they are in.
I understand the risk of it destroying a ship while your boarding crew is on it if the ship has one health, but I hate the chances of Crystal vengeance killing my boarding crew so I always ditch it ASAP on the Carnelian. However, a fix for this would just be to make it not deal Anti-Personnel Damage or maybe even, to make to more useful, have it heal your crew if it happens to hit them.

Another totally weirdo idea... One thing I think could really change up the Crystal ships would be making the Crystals use "missiles," and giving the Crystal Vengeance augment a function similar to the Ammo Manufacturer augment. But it essentially uses parts of you own ship to make the missiles so it requires you to sacrifice your own hull, but then you can also use it like a hill repair kit to regenerate your hull if yo want at empty beacons. This would keep you at a constant balancing of your hull strength.


Anyway, those are a few of my comments on each of the ships. Analyzing all of the changes made for CE Compared to Vanilla I would say the balancing is very well done. There are only a few things I could think of changing.

Russian Rockman wrote:The CE ship load outs are something I have been wanting to discuss for a while.....

Very well written!
Sleeper, waht are your thoughts on incorporating the infinante loot weapons into the CE ship loadouts? (based on RR's comments, of course).

Thank you! Glad it doesn't just sound like rambling to everybody.

There could be room for the Infinite Loot weapons to showcase some of their effects, they don't change the originals too much so it shouldn't really upset the balance if it is done right.

Russian Rockman wrote:Thank you! Glad it doesn't just sound like rambling to everybody.

There could be room for the Infinite Loot weapons to showcase some of their effects, they don't change the originals too much so it shouldn't really upset the balance if it is done right.

Yeah, this is something to consider. It would be great if the player could just get random variation of the CE starting weapons. That would be possible with events for some ships, but I'm not sure if it is possible to include this options only at game start...

My two cents on the loadouts:
They are still meant as a showcase, but I'm glad they work out and convey their ships tone. I don't plan in changing around their systems or anything beyond changing their load out to preserve their tone. There are enough ship revamp mods that work totally fine with CE. If someone is interested in certain load out he/she can always make a little ship mod for that.

fedaykin wrote:Zoltan A also seems to be dramatically buffed with the "ignore 1 shield" augment, as well as a missile swarm. It's a harsher universe out there now, so it seems reasonable.

Yeah, that aug is under evaluation. But I like that the Zoltan start with a more powerful ship, It conveys their position in the universe nicely.

fedaykin wrote:Zoltan B, however, without the ion field or starting shields feels a much less reliable choice than it's brother ship. The zoltan shield is going to take some punishment while your ion/beam combo charges. You also even need to upgrade weapons before you can use them together, so potential rocky start without too much to look forward to.

You should have seen it a few months ago... dual Ion Burst I and dual Hasta Beam. Was good fun as long as it lasted.

fedaykin wrote:The Kestrel has been nerfed significantly with both its missile and laser inferior to vanilla. Of course it used to be a very strong choice, but now it feels a little light on damage. Being able to make fuel is a nice bonus I guess, but I don't think it compensates for losing a power bar and a laser shot.

I'm more agreeing with Rockmen here. The Kestrel has actually lost very little DPS, but gained a quite significant economic buff due to the fuel recycle. It performs less well against shields, but better against dodge with this load out.

Russian Rockman wrote:Rock B: I like they heavy artillery canon, it seems very Brutish like a rock ship should be, the fire bomb I would actually be better than the big fire bomb in a way since it charges faster but yes it's a shame there is no teleporter to pair it with, it would be very interesting to convert it into a pyro ship, but it doesn't seem right to give it a fire beam or a Teleporter. That would be too different from vanilla.

I love that the ship feels so powerful early on but can fall behind very quickly against two shields if you fail to "modernize" it. Seems very fitting for the Rock. The fire boarding tactik is still easily available, you really just need a teleporter to get this going.

Russian Rockman wrote:Slug A: wasn't buffed until the targeting jammer which just helps to make it less frustrating early on, I love the light lasers as replacements for the breach bomb, but I REALLY MISS THE ANTI-BIO BEAM.

Then I recommend the CE Vanilla Player Ship addon.

Russian Rockman wrote: I understand the risk of it destroying a ship while your boarding crew is on it if the ship has one health, but I hate the chances of Crystal vengeance killing my boarding crew so I always ditch it ASAP on the Carnelian. However, a fix for this would just be to make it not deal Anti-Personnel Damage or maybe even, to make to more useful, have it heal your crew if it happens to hit them.

Yeah, this risk is just something the player has to handle. Getting rid of the vengeance is pretty easy anyway, as you just need a shop for that.

Russian Rockman wrote: Another totally weirdo idea... One thing I think could really change up the Crystal ships would be making the Crystals use "missiles," and giving the Crystal Vengeance augment a function similar to the Ammo Manufacturer augment. But it essentially uses parts of you own ship to make the missiles so it requires you to sacrifice your own hull, but then you can also use it like a hill repair kit to regenerate your hull if yo want at empty beacons. This would keep you at a constant balancing of your hull strength.

I'd say crystal weapons are not that powerful to justify this kind of a downside. The concept would be interesting though.

The Crystal idea with the missiles was adding to something you said a while back I think.

Are you sure you couldn't give the Crystal Vengeance no Personnel damage? I mean it's fine to just ditch Crystal Vengeance as soon as possible, but I don't really want to "want" to get rid of it, if you know what I mean. I suppose if you think the risk adds to the "fun" then that's fine, but really the Carnelian with Crystal Vengeance is a bad combo. If it did no crew damage or even healed your crew when hitting them that would be lucky if that happened rather than unlucky when it hits your own crew. But, maybe I'm the only one who always has my ship kill my own crew. I just find this yet another reason why Crystal Vengeance sucks and so that's why I thought it should be changed.


For Infinite Loot if you really wanted to spend a ton of time maybe you could even have people choose some of their starting weapons and "augments" for those weapons, like Descent into Darkness.

Sleeper Service wrote:

fedaykin wrote:The Kestrel has been nerfed significantly with both its missile and laser inferior to vanilla. Of course it used to be a very strong choice, but now it feels a little light on damage. Being able to make fuel is a nice bonus I guess, but I don't think it compensates for losing a power bar and a laser shot.

I'm more agreeing with Rockmen here. The Kestrel has actually lost very little DPS, but gained a quite significant economic buff due to the fuel recycle. It performs less well against shields, but better against dodge with this load out.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I just had another run with the kestrel to see if I was being unfair and I'm willing to concede I was wrong. The fast recharging dual lasers + missiling their shields still gives a decent amount of fast early damage and buffer time before more firepower is needed. Free fuel is a not insignificant buff and gives the ship a unique flavour. Kestrel is ok!

Amusingly, on this most recent kestrel run, there was an event where I had the option of sacrificing 10 fuel to try to escape a hazard with a weapon. Then I rescued a slave, who willingly agreed to serve on the ship out of gratitute. Next jump, he got handed over to bounty hunters for an Ion Burst Mk2. I felt like such a bastard. Lots of nice moral additions, especially with the random weapon rewards for betraying your crew! It's easy to be a hero when there's a nice blue event, but when there's an ion burst for grabs...

Hello. I am a electronic musician. I posted some FTL-inspired music tracks at reddit.com/r/ftlgame, and sleeper_service contacted me and told me that I should post here if I'd like to get some work featured in CE. So here I am. Fire away!

Perhaps the crystal B could have a different type of crystal vengeance. Maybe a blood shard vengeance where whenever the ship takes damage it shoots a red crystal that when it hits a room would heal your crewmembers, but not damage the enemy ships hull. It defiantly wouldn't be very reliable because of the random targeting, but the occasional hit to the room with your crew in it would be nice. Another thing to consider is that this would essentially make the crystal B more powerful, even though it doesn't really need to be.

spudcosmic wrote:Perhaps the crystal B could have a different type of crystal vengeance. Maybe a blood shard vengeance where whenever the ship takes damage it shoots a red crystal that when it hits a room would heal your crewmembers, but not damage the enemy ships hull. It defiantly wouldn't be very reliable because of the random targeting, but the occasional hit to the room with your crew in it would be nice. Another thing to consider is that this would essentially make the crystal B more powerful, even though it doesn't really need to be.

You cannot copy augments...