Whining

General discussion about the game.
Scase
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 6:01 pm

Re: Whining

Postby Scase » Sun Sep 23, 2012 6:08 pm

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
Guess what? I don't care what "reward" you get out of a game. I find a game rewarding when it's a fair-to-stacked-in-my-favor challenge, not when it's an unfair-to-impossible stack against me.

So I even the odds. Maxim 31. Only cheaters prosper.


If you need to cheat to beat this game then maybe you should try something a little less challenging.

The fact that 95% of the game is predicated on random rolls means it CANNOT be "unfair-to-impossible stack against me" you have just as many chances for it to roll in your favor as you do against.

Do things sometimes not go your way? Do you die quickly and frequently? Yes and yes, that's one of the joys of rogue-like games. Basically your biggest gripe right now is the platform itself, so probably not the game for you.

I hear in Call of Duty you can hide behind things and completely heal up, that sounds stacked in your favor no? Go nuts with it.
Derakon
Posts: 111
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:05 am

Re: Whining

Postby Derakon » Sun Sep 23, 2012 6:48 pm

Scase wrote:The fact that 95% of the game is predicated on random rolls means it CANNOT be "unfair-to-impossible stack against me" you have just as many chances for it to roll in your favor as you do against.
False. "Random" is not equivalent to "fair" because the rolls are stacked. As a simple example, the game tends to generate enemies which have much more firepower than the player does towards the late game.

Do things sometimes not go your way? Do you die quickly and frequently? Yes and yes, that's one of the joys of rogue-like games. Basically your biggest gripe right now is the platform itself, so probably not the game for you.


Speaking as someone who's been playing roguelike games since probably before 50% of the members on this forum were born, roguelikes are not about capriciously killing their players off. Every game in a roguelike should be winnable barring extreme bad luck -- we're talking here like "game hit a literally one-in-a-million roll to generate a dragon twenty levels earlier than it should have and that dragon woke up and breathed fire on you before you could realize it was there" types of things. If you run into a bad situation in a roguelike, you typically have many potential options for how to mitigate that bad luck. You can maneuver yourself into corners where you have to deal with fewer incoming attacks. You can expend some limited-supply resources you've been hoarding all game specifically to deal with "I've-gotten-in-over-my-head" problems. You can employ risky-but-powerful techniques.

Compare that with fights in FTL: you have no emergency backup options. If you get in over your head (and you will), you'd best hope your engine charges up to jump out before you get destroyed. Otherwise you just try to target the enemy systems as best you can, send over your crew if you have a teleporter, and hope for the best. Your control over your fate is laughably limited.

The degree to which your success in FTL depends on luck is huge, moreso than in any roguelike I've ever played. Roguelikes mostly use randomness to determine the setting for the game, but they heavily constrain the range of difficulty to maintain a reasonably smooth difficulty curve. FTL doesn't have anywhere near a smooth difficulty curve.
Telemont
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:45 am

Re: Whining

Postby Telemont » Sun Sep 23, 2012 6:51 pm

I've beaten the game many times now, and I've had the occasional strange enemy show up out of nowhere and just hand me my ass. The most astounding was a slug assault craft in a nebula with 4 shields, 1 Missile Launcher, and 3 Burst Laser Mark IIs.

I was having a great game so far, put up my Defense Drone Mark II, had 4 Shield and 55% evasion, and sent in my boarding party. (Silly slugs)

I handled the first volley of 9 lasers easily, then the first missile they fired was missed by my Defense Drone Mark II and hit my cockpit. I suddenly had no evade and the second volley of 9 lasers shredded me so fast I was stunned. The third volley killed me.
Scase
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 6:01 pm

Re: Whining

Postby Scase » Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:32 pm

Derakon wrote:
Scase wrote:The fact that 95% of the game is predicated on random rolls means it CANNOT be "unfair-to-impossible stack against me" you have just as many chances for it to roll in your favor as you do against.
False. "Random" is not equivalent to "fair" because the rolls are stacked. As a simple example, the game tends to generate enemies which have much more firepower than the player does towards the late game.

Do things sometimes not go your way? Do you die quickly and frequently? Yes and yes, that's one of the joys of rogue-like games. Basically your biggest gripe right now is the platform itself, so probably not the game for you.


Speaking as someone who's been playing roguelike games since probably before 50% of the members on this forum were born, roguelikes are not about capriciously killing their players off. Every game in a roguelike should be winnable barring extreme bad luck -- we're talking here like "game hit a literally one-in-a-million roll to generate a dragon twenty levels earlier than it should have and that dragon woke up and breathed fire on you before you could realize it was there" types of things. If you run into a bad situation in a roguelike, you typically have many potential options for how to mitigate that bad luck. You can maneuver yourself into corners where you have to deal with fewer incoming attacks. You can expend some limited-supply resources you've been hoarding all game specifically to deal with "I've-gotten-in-over-my-head" problems. You can employ risky-but-powerful techniques.

Compare that with fights in FTL: you have no emergency backup options. If you get in over your head (and you will), you'd best hope your engine charges up to jump out before you get destroyed. Otherwise you just try to target the enemy systems as best you can, send over your crew if you have a teleporter, and hope for the best. Your control over your fate is laughably limited.

The degree to which your success in FTL depends on luck is huge, moreso than in any roguelike I've ever played. Roguelikes mostly use randomness to determine the setting for the game, but they heavily constrain the range of difficulty to maintain a reasonably smooth difficulty curve. FTL doesn't have anywhere near a smooth difficulty curve.


I don't think this game requires "Oh crap" skills and so on. The inherent way you do damage to enemies (targeting specific systems) allows you to attempt to combat particularly strong ships. If a ship shows up with 5 layers of shielding (yes it's happened to me) and a boat load of weaponry they are lower in other ship systems. The idea is to target those, and barring that boarding a heavily offensive ship is a good way to swing the balance back in your favor.

As was mentioned before by someone else, this game is not a "Crap this is a bad battle why is the game cheating" type of game. It's more along the lines of decisions you have made in earlier sectors (EG: Shields over weapons or vice versa etc.) biting you in the ass. If you have bad luck and the game rolls a ship that is your exact counter, well that is the epitome of random chance. There is no bias, you just had a case of bad luck.

I've had plenty of times where the game handed me my ass on a silver platter but, at the same time I realized the next game I start I am pretty unlikely to run across that same bad luck scenario again. The game is not too hard by any stretch. Playing engi B is difficult but, that would be because YOU decide to start at a handicap. The game itself has the ability to screw you over or bless you incredibly (scrap recovery arm on the first jump in the game), it's not picking favorites.

What fun would this game be without any sense of danger or difficulty.
UltraMantis
Posts: 2141
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:17 pm

Re: Whining

Postby UltraMantis » Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:04 am

jamotide wrote:Wow, that is a mean encounter, I guess level 4 shields and 50% evasion are recommended in S7.


Or a Pre-Igniter + Cloak, Ion Bomb + Glaive, etc. Realy it doesn't matter what ace you got up your sleeve, but yeah, you definetly need an ace. Or several.

Telemont wrote:I've beaten the game many times now, and I've had the occasional strange enemy show up out of nowhere and just hand me my ass. The most astounding was a slug assault craft in a nebula with 4 shields, 1 Missile Launcher, and 3 Burst Laser Mark IIs.

I was having a great game so far, put up my Defense Drone Mark II, had 4 Shield and 55% evasion, and sent in my boarding party. (Silly slugs)

I handled the first volley of 9 lasers easily, then the first missile they fired was missed by my Defense Drone Mark II and hit my cockpit. I suddenly had no evade and the second volley of 9 lasers shredded me so fast I was stunned. The third volley killed me.


Wow! What a way to die, and what an evil bastard. That one missile ruined you. 50% evasion + 4 shields can dance around the lasers but he took away your speed. More and more people are starting to belive that ideal drone defence is a MarkII to stop whatever lasers it can and a MarkI solely to catch missiles.
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Durus
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:56 am

Re: Whining

Postby Durus » Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:06 am

I find sector 7 Rebel drone ships a little OP sometimes. So I tend to avoid Engi sectors at 7. I had a run where i just jumped away from 2 of these (on normal) and went on to beat the boss. It's not that I could not have beaten them, I just weighed up the cost and benefit and found it would not be worth it.
If you don't have missiles/bombs drone heavy ships can be very painful.
Trylobyte
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:47 am

Re: Whining

Postby Trylobyte » Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:21 am

I've had a few moments where I'm sure I was killed more or less by bad luck. One involved my first jump off start in a Nesasio being against a Rebel Rigger with an anti-ship drone and a burst laser. Drone's first move was to knock out my cloak, which resulted in the burst laser firing and knocking out my life support and helm (I hate how AI can spread fire like that but you can't) while the drone plinked away at my weapons.
Icehawk78
Posts: 230
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:55 pm

Re: Whining

Postby Icehawk78 » Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:20 am

Trylobyte wrote:I've had a few moments where I'm sure I was killed more or less by bad luck. One involved my first jump off start in a Nesasio being against a Rebel Rigger with an anti-ship drone and a burst laser. Drone's first move was to knock out my cloak, which resulted in the burst laser firing and knocking out my life support and helm (I hate how AI can spread fire like that but you can't) while the drone plinked away at my weapons.

How do you mean "how AI can spread fire like that but you can't"?
nfiea2
Posts: 43
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:23 pm

Re: Whining

Postby nfiea2 » Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:01 am

I think that the people claiming this guys didn't play well enough are funny as hell.

1 by then the dodge chance is well over 50% for every enemy
if you actually played the game you would know this

(so his lasers are really worthless without the boarding team taking down shields)

but 40% dodge and 3 shields isn't so amazingly bad


this guy is bringing up a completely valid point

I've gotten every ship but the slug ship so I've played the game a few times

the game will randomly dick you around and force you into fights that are insane; sometimes it takes the form of a enemy with 4 missle launchers; sometimes it is 5 mantis teleporting onto your ship all at once while a mantis cruiser with 4 shields and a defence 2 drone shoots a burst laser III and a glave beam at you


Play the game
Unlock the crystal and mantis ships
then tell me this game isn't broken

for fucks sake I've been in battles in which the enemy didn't lose half of their power due to the ion storm while I did

the game spawns sectors that can't be finished

and it causes some hardware to light on fire


It needs to be fixed and you stuffing your mouths as full of the devs as you can isn't helping
nfiea2
Posts: 43
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:23 pm

Re: Whining

Postby nfiea2 » Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:06 am

Scase wrote:
Derakon wrote:
Scase wrote:The fact that 95% of the game is predicated on random rolls means it CANNOT be "unfair-to-impossible stack against me" you have just as many chances for it to roll in your favor as you do against.
False. "Random" is not equivalent to "fair" because the rolls are stacked. As a simple example, the game tends to generate enemies which have much more firepower than the player does towards the late game.

Do things sometimes not go your way? Do you die quickly and frequently? Yes and yes, that's one of the joys of rogue-like games. Basically your biggest gripe right now is the platform itself, so probably not the game for you.


Speaking as someone who's been playing roguelike games since probably before 50% of the members on this forum were born, roguelikes are not about capriciously killing their players off. Every game in a roguelike should be winnable barring extreme bad luck -- we're talking here like "game hit a literally one-in-a-million roll to generate a dragon twenty levels earlier than it should have and that dragon woke up and breathed fire on you before you could realize it was there" types of things. If you run into a bad situation in a roguelike, you typically have many potential options for how to mitigate that bad luck. You can maneuver yourself into corners where you have to deal with fewer incoming attacks. You can expend some limited-supply resources you've been hoarding all game specifically to deal with "I've-gotten-in-over-my-head" problems. You can employ risky-but-powerful techniques.

Compare that with fights in FTL: you have no emergency backup options. If you get in over your head (and you will), you'd best hope your engine charges up to jump out before you get destroyed. Otherwise you just try to target the enemy systems as best you can, send over your crew if you have a teleporter, and hope for the best. Your control over your fate is laughably limited.

The degree to which your success in FTL depends on luck is huge, moreso than in any roguelike I've ever played. Roguelikes mostly use randomness to determine the setting for the game, but they heavily constrain the range of difficulty to maintain a reasonably smooth difficulty curve. FTL doesn't have anywhere near a smooth difficulty curve.


I don't think this game requires "Oh crap" skills and so on. The inherent way you do damage to enemies (targeting specific systems) allows you to attempt to combat particularly strong ships. If a ship shows up with 5 layers of shielding (yes it's happened to me) and a boat load of weaponry they are lower in other ship systems. The idea is to target those, and barring that boarding a heavily offensive ship is a good way to swing the balance back in your favor.

As was mentioned before by someone else, this game is not a "Crap this is a bad battle why is the game cheating" type of game. It's more along the lines of decisions you have made in earlier sectors (EG: Shields over weapons or vice versa etc.) biting you in the ass. If you have bad luck and the game rolls a ship that is your exact counter, well that is the epitome of random chance. There is no bias, you just had a case of bad luck.

I've had plenty of times where the game handed me my ass on a silver platter but, at the same time I realized the next game I start I am pretty unlikely to run across that same bad luck scenario again. The game is not too hard by any stretch. Playing engi B is difficult but, that would be because YOU decide to start at a handicap. The game itself has the ability to screw you over or bless you incredibly (scrap recovery arm on the first jump in the game), it's not picking favorites.

What fun would this game be without any sense of danger or difficulty.


Just stop lying
I've obvisouly played this game more than you have
I'm right
the OP is right
you are factually incorrect

the statement that the game is more about what you choose in the first sectors being more important than what the random number generator spawns for you is flase

false

100% false

play the game

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