[Suggestion] Fixing the Broken and Bad Ships

General discussion about the game.
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Twinge
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Re: [Suggestion] Fixing the Broken and Bad Ships

Postby Twinge » Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:03 pm

Jacke wrote:Didn't realise there were such serious bugs still current. Any idea when we'll see them fixed? And do you think we'll see any official changes to the ship's starting loadout, or will that just be seen in mods?


The bug is realistically fairly minor - it's been around since the beginning (it affects Defense Drones too), but the only spot where I think it's an important issue is the Stealth C. (Though there are about half a dozen other minor bugs.)

I think it's extremely unlikely to see base ships changed at all in unmodded FTL.
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Jacke
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Re: [Suggestion] Fixing the Broken and Bad Ships

Postby Jacke » Fri Sep 12, 2014 4:37 pm

Twinge wrote:The bug [ Defensive drones missing targets too far to left and right ] is realistically fairly minor - it's been around since the beginning (it affects Defense Drones too), but the only spot where I think it's an important issue is the Stealth C. (Though there are about half a dozen other minor bugs.)


Did a number of runs with the Engi B. When I had a Defense Drone I didn't see it, but I could have easily missed it.

Twinge wrote:I think it's extremely unlikely to see base ships changed at all in unmodded FTL.


That's a shame, as I think some of the ships seriously need changes. I know some don't think there are broken ships, but there's a lot of support for significant relative differences in the Ship tier thread (http://www.ftlgame.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14629&start=90). And how many runs does it take to win with these?

In Basic Edition, I had a Normal victory in the Fed-A, with Easy wins in the Kestrel A, Kestrel-B, and Stealth-A. With AE I've won on Easy with the Kestrel-B, Fed-A, Engi-A, and Stealth-B, with a Normal win in the Kestrel-C. I've polished my game to the point where I'm likely better than I was under BE. But I still struggle with Normal and many Easy runs, especially at the start and with Normal all the way through. I've worked out guildlines on what to upgrade when, but it seems the factors of the game combine to frustrate me.

In the last few days, I've had many, many games, Easy and Normal, in the Engi-B. The Engi-B is far worse that the Stealth-B. It is so ill-equiped. In my best game, a Normal run which reached Sector 6 with a crew of 5, I had a good set of equipment (Burst Laser II, Ion Blast II, Small Bomb, Defense Drone I, Drone Recovery Arm, Hacking) but I was so short of Scrap I'd just upgraded to Doors level 2 just before getting destroyed. Still didn't have Sensors nor level 2 in Medbay or Oxygen. Still needed more Power and Weapons upgrades. All the runs were a constant race between trying to get Scrap to upgrade and holding onto enough for Events and Stores to get better kit. I find it laughable the advice on the wiki about holding on to a stockpile of ~120-150 Scrap to use at Stores. I only had more that 100 once when I sold before I bought at a store. I say the Engi-B is broken.

I don't see how, even with better skill, someone can consistently win on Normal on many of the ships. I don't even want to think about Hard on any of them.
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Re: [Suggestion] Fixing the Broken and Bad Ships

Postby The Captain » Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:09 pm

Without knowing what your ship looked like at the end and how you got there, it's hard to say where you might have gone wrong. Obviously you got past the early Engi B hump of finding a way to get past two layers of shields.

I can say that maybe you should stop thinking about upgrading minor systems (unless you really really need to). If you've got 5 crew, you could have put a guy in Doors - boom, level 2 doors. Maybe even do that before manning Shields. I wouldn't be thinking about L2 Medbay unless I'm boarding, nor about L2 O2 until I'm about to face the boss.

Have you watched any vids on YouTube? I find 5th Horseman's to be entertaining. And you might learn something, too.
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Re: [Suggestion] Fixing the Broken and Bad Ships

Postby Jacke » Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:45 pm

The Captain wrote:Without knowing what your ship looked like at the end and how you got there, it's hard to say where you might have gone wrong. Obviously you got past the early Engi B hump of finding a way to get past two layers of shields.

I've trashed all the screencaptures, but this is what I remember of the Engi-B in Sector 6 (although I might be misremembering it between the last and previous runs, where I only got to Sector 4 once and Sector 3 twice).

Had a crew of 5: 1 Engi (now maxed due to Engi Virus) on Doors/Damage Control, 1 Human Piloting (gold rated), 1 Zoltan Engines (gold rated), 1 Rockman Weapons (green rated), 1 Mantis Shields/Counter boarding. Augments were Drone Recovery Arm and Defense Scrambler. Had Burst Laser II and Ion Blast II. Also had Hull Beam for the longest time and had recently replaced it with Small Bomb. Weapons was at 5 so I couldn't run all 3. Had Defense Drone (had sold all others to get gear and Scrap for upgrades). Had 2 Shields and level 4 Engines. Medbay and Oxygen were level 1. Piloting was level 2. Doors had been upgraded in the last 2 jumps to level 2. Also added Hacking and upgraded it to level 2. I think Drone Control was level 4 (due to early need to run both Defense Drone and Anti-Personal Drone), but that may have been a previous run and it could have been the original level 3. Reactor was at 15.

The Captain wrote:I can say that maybe you should stop thinking about upgrading minor systems (unless you really really need to). If you've got 5 crew, you could have put a guy in Doors - boom, level 2 doors. Maybe even do that before manning Shields. I wouldn't be thinking about L2 Medbay unless I'm boarding, nor about L2 O2 until I'm about to face the boss.

That's how I had Doors for most of the game, and the others were still level 1 except for Piloting (mostly to guard against single hits taking out the con). Literally just upgraded to level 2 Doors a jump or 2 back more due to enemy Mind Control needing me to isolate all crew singly yet allow my Engi to roam to fix stuff. Then only the Mantis would damage a level of systems--and him I was going to isolate in an empty room when they had Mind Control.

Problem was I was continuously losing too much Hull, some in every battle. Prior to getting the Defense Drone, it was missiles. After getting it, enemy started get more lasers, bombs, and flak weapons. Also about half the ships had 3 Shields. And then more started getting Hacking or Mind Control. As well, I was underpowered for most of the game. Only just before getting destroyed had I upgraded the Reactor to 15: Shields (4), Engines (4), Oxygen (1), Hacking (2) Weapons (3), with 1 left over. To run Defense Drone I would have to take from Engines or Oxygen.

Find battle was a drawn out one with a 3-Shield ship with Hacking, a Flak gun, a Laser, a Beam, and a Small Bomb. They Hacked my Weapons and even with me Hacking their Shields, I never got any further than temporarily damaging the Shields and the Weapons. Their fire just kept smashing Systems and I couldn't keep up.

The Captain wrote:Have you watched any vids on YouTube? I find 5th Horseman's to be entertaining. And you might learn something, too.

Back in BE, I had watched some of Northerlion's vids. I went searching but couldn't find any good AE ones. I'll look at 5th Horseman's.

I just started an Easy run on the Engi-B. The greater amount of Scrap and slightly less difficult enemies is making a difference, especially the Scrap.

EDIT: And that Easy game has gone to crap.

In Sector 4 with 3 crew: Engi, Rockman, Mantis. Have lots of upgrades and even 217 Scrap on hand. But the ships will have 2 Shields almost entirely. And I still have the initial Heavy Ion and Heavy Laser I.

Looked back at my screencaptures to review the stores I visited. In Sector 1 I could have bought the Small Bomb--but instead I bought Drone Recovery Arm. In Sector 2 (Zoltan Controlled) it was all awkward weapons, Burst Laser III, Fire Bomb, and Halberd Beam, so I got Sensors. 2nd Sector 2 store had Halberd Beam, Hermes Missile, and Ion Blast II, as well as Beam I and Defense I, where I bought Defense I and fuel. Didn't find a store in Sector 3 (Mantis Homeworlds).

And now the first store in Sector 4 (Engi Controlled) doesn't have any weapons or drones. Has 2 crap and 1 needing-missiles Augments: FTL Recharge Booster, Repair Arm, and Explosive Replicator. Does have 3 good Systems: Teleporter, Cloaking, and Hacking. I could get any 1 or even both Teleporter and Hacking. Not sure how to go here as I would need Scrap for fuel and upgrades too--but I need to keep some Scrap for the next store to get a weapon to help pierce 2 and later 3 Shields. And I will likely not take down too many ships here.

Ugh. :x
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Re: [Suggestion] Fixing the Broken and Bad Ships

Postby The Captain » Sat Sep 13, 2014 1:15 am

Jacke wrote:I think Drone Control was level 4 (due to early need to run both Defense Drone and Anti-Personal Drone), but that may have been a previous run and it could have been the original level 3. Reactor was at 15.


Well, I will take a little issue with this. You can alternate between drones. Get boarded? Activate the AP Drone. Missile on its way? Depower the AP Drone, power up the Defense Drone. When the missile has done whatever, depower the DD and reactivate the APD. IMO that scrap would have been better spent on Shields - two layers are too low for Sector 6. Well, I don't know what you might have needed to spend it on at the time, but better defenses mean less scrap spent on repairs.

Problem was I was continuously losing too much Hull, some in every battle. Prior to getting the Defense Drone, it was missiles. After getting it, enemy started get more lasers, bombs, and flak weapons.


Upgrading your engines early is pretty important, too. In Normal I'd likely have L5 by sector 6.

As well, I was underpowered for most of the game. Only just before getting destroyed had I upgraded the Reactor to 15: Shields (4), Engines (4), Oxygen (1), Hacking (2) Weapons (3), with 1 left over. To run Defense Drone I would have to take from Engines or Oxygen.


Well, having your Reactor lag behind the power requirements of all the stuff you have is pretty typical of the harder difficulties. Power management is a key skill. Until you can afford to buy more power, you just have to borrow from where it's not needed (or needed less) and put it where it's needed more.

I just started an Easy run on the Engi-B. The greater amount of Scrap and slightly less difficult enemies is making a difference, especially the Scrap.

EDIT: And that Easy game has gone to crap.

In Sector 4 with 3 crew: Engi, Rockman, Mantis. Have lots of upgrades and even 217 Scrap on hand. But the ships will have 2 Shields almost entirely. And I still have the initial Heavy Ion and Heavy Laser I.

Looked back at my screencaptures to review the stores I visited. In Sector 1 I could have bought the Small Bomb--but instead I bought Drone Recovery Arm. In Sector 2 (Zoltan Controlled) it was all awkward weapons, Burst Laser III, Fire Bomb, and Halberd Beam, so I got Sensors. 2nd Sector 2 store had Halberd Beam, Hermes Missile, and Ion Blast II, as well as Beam I and Defense I, where I bought Defense I and fuel. Didn't find a store in Sector 3 (Mantis Homeworlds).


I will challenge your purchase decisions. Buying a Drone Recovery Arm in Sector 1 seems premature - I'm guessing you didn't have any offensive drones at the time. Sure, the DRA can be really useful, but in the first sector I'd say it's better to buy Shields and Engines. And what's awkward about the Halberd Beam? Upgrade your Weapons Control to L4 and now you can do damage to ships with two shield layers. Or buy the Ion Blast II, upgrade WC, and once their shields are down, your Heavy Laser can get to work. Sensors were not the right choice - they're not nearly as important as getting weapons that will enable you to keep doing damage as the enemies get better.
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Re: [Suggestion] Fixing the Broken and Bad Ships

Postby Jacke » Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:40 am

The Captain wrote:Well, I will take a little issue with [ early upgrade of Drone Control to level 4 ]. You can alternate between drones. Get boarded? Activate the AP Drone. Missile on its way? Depower the AP Drone, power up the Defense Drone. When the missile has done whatever, depower the DD and reactivate the APD. IMO that scrap would have been better spent on Shields - two layers are too low for Sector 6. Well, I don't know what you might have needed to spend it on at the time, but better defenses mean less scrap spent on repairs.

....

Upgrading your engines early is pretty important, too. In Normal I'd likely have L5 by sector 6.

....

I will challenge your purchase decisions. Buying a Drone Recovery Arm in Sector 1 seems premature - I'm guessing you didn't have any offensive drones at the time. Sure, the DRA can be really useful, but in the first sector I'd say it's better to buy Shields and Engines. And what's awkward about the Halberd Beam? Upgrade your Weapons Control to L4 and now you can do damage to ships with two shield layers. Or buy the Ion Blast II, upgrade WC, and once their shields are down, your Heavy Laser can get to work. Sensors were not the right choice - they're not nearly as important as getting weapons that will enable you to keep doing damage as the enemies get better.


I agree with all these. Watching 5th Horseman's Hard run on the Engi-B to Sector 5, I see him making some better choices but also making some mistakes, especially based on his rapid play. But, hey, I make mistakes too. What I think you guys have is a greater tolerance to the weaknesses and the losses the RNG serves up.

Since that Easy Engi-B run is going a combo of too easy and bad (lots of Scrap but now a tough run in Sector 4 with inadequate weapons), I think I'll run it out and then go for a Normal run.

EDIT: And stuff turned up. Now have Hacking and for Weapons Flak I, Ion Blast I, and Swarm Missile.

This is my problem with Easy. I can have a rough start and the RNG just might kill me in the bad ships (or more rarely the better ones) but after a while that Scrap just pouring in eases off the difficulty just a bit too much.

But damn, that Swarm Missile is sweet. :D
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Twinge
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Re: [Suggestion] Fixing the Broken and Bad Ships

Postby Twinge » Sun Sep 14, 2014 12:22 pm

Jacke wrote:Did a number of runs with the Engi B. When I had a Defense Drone I didn't see it, but I could have easily missed it.


All 3 Engi Cruiser layouts are fully within the safe zone - Defense Drones are about 99.5% effective on them. For contrast, they're only about 85% effective on the Fed. A, which is a much larger ship.
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Re: [Suggestion] Fixing the Broken and Bad Ships

Postby tboss » Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:46 pm

Engi B... should have just started with a def drone to replace a repair drone. that way it would have had the early defencive capabilities to make up for having possibly the weakest offence in the game.

stealth B, is fine, one of my favorite ships and able to get to the boss and win regularly with it. Even stealth C is fine, my only complaint is you cant optimize your use of shield+ near as much as stealth, but you get a anti-drown making shield+ more useful, and its good for once you get a shield anyway.

rock A can get explosive replicator but start with half missiles.

id give slug A some form of ion, or give it a AE item such as mind control.

NO other ships should need buffs.
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Re: [Suggestion] Fixing the Broken and Bad Ships

Postby 5thHorseman » Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:07 pm

Jacke wrote:Watching 5th Horseman's Hard run on the Engi-B to Sector 5, I see him making some better choices but also making some mistakes, especially based on his rapid play. But, hey, I make mistakes too. What I think you guys have is a greater tolerance to the weaknesses and the losses the RNG serves up.


I wouldn't call it a tolerance. More of a love. I don't want to win every game but the only way I'm going to lose these days is if I make a SERIOUS mistake or the RNG tosses me a nasty curveball right at the worst time (usually right after a serious mistake :D)
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Re: [Suggestion] Fixing the Broken and Bad Ships

Postby Jacke » Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:30 am

5thHorseman wrote:
Jacke wrote:Watching 5th Horseman's Hard run on the Engi-B to Sector 5, I see him making some better choices but also making some mistakes, especially based on his rapid play. But, hey, I make mistakes too. What I think you guys have is a greater tolerance to the weaknesses and the losses the RNG serves up.


I wouldn't call it a tolerance. More of a love. I don't want to win every game but the only way I'm going to lose these days is if I make a SERIOUS mistake or the RNG tosses me a nasty curveball right at the worst time (usually right after a serious mistake :D)


Well, despite having a not so bad Easy run on the Engi B (just jumped into Sector 6, Slug Home Nebula, without Mind Control, sigh), I'm a bit tired of FTL.

So I'm heading back to Kerbal Space Program for now. Where I see you also hang out, 5th Horseman. :D