The role of missiles

General discussion about the game.
Jellosity
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Re: The role of missiles

Postby Jellosity » Sun Apr 20, 2014 11:39 pm

You could always just try to save missiles or use strictly laser missiles till the last sectors or the really hard bosses.
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karadoc
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Re: The role of missiles

Postby karadoc » Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:59 am

Jellosity wrote:You could always just try to save missiles or use strictly laser missiles till the last sectors or the really hard bosses.

That's a fair enough thing to do, but if you aren't using the missiles for the majority of the game, it's generally better to sell your missile weapons (and sell your missiles if you get the opportunity) so that you can use the scrap for other things. - particularly on hard mode, where scrap is in short supply.

Selling the missile weapons for scrap means you'll be more likely to survive to reach the final stages, and it means you'll be able have better resources and defences to earn more scrap on the way there. - And when you get there, you won't need your missile weapons anyway.

(I'm not trying to say that missiles are bad. I'm just trying to highlight that the way they are balanced tends to lead to them being ignored.)
Mnemon
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Re: The role of missiles

Postby Mnemon » Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:28 pm

I think the problem isn't that missiles are bad or underpowered, just that the alternatives are so much less costly / more reliable - and most importantly that defense drone 1 is just way too good at nullifying them.

I'd think if the aim would be to make missiles balanced you'd have to tweak elsewhere, too, and experiment a lot with values. I'd start with the defense drones, not least because defense drone 2 still sucks and isn't worth it, really. So my point here would be to significantly reduce the accuracy of defense drone 1 (and, maybe, to slot it down to 1 energy consumption) similar to the anti-drone drone. Defense drone 2 then could basically take the slot of defense drone 1, currently. Easy fix would be to make it a 2 shot drone - think mini chain or dual laser mounted on a drone - so it gets 2 chances to take down that missile.

From a realism perspective I'd also assume that missiles are more likely to have higher accuracy than other weapons. As they are self-propelled they can, to a limited degree, alter course. Gameplay wise that might be solved by giving option to have them 'lock on' - at the cost of an even more increased charge up time. The role than would mainly be to take down a crucial system in those enemies that have high dodge, but the risk would be that while you wait for it to lock on the opponent might do immense damage to your ship. I wouldn't want to lower accuracy of the other weapons - it feels 'right' the way it is atm. Energy weapons have to overcome shield and dodge; missiles face drones, dodge and resource costs. I don't think the resource costs as a limiting factor are bad but the return really has to be worth it for them to stand up next to energy weapons.

Bombs could be more random, in comparison. The cheap alternative to missiles - don't have to worry about drones, charge faster, but are a lot more inaccurate. [In game logic stick: You are teleporting them into an enemy ship - possibly one of an alien race, too - so it's difficult to gauge which room really has what function, and it's hard to get those coordinates precisely right, especially if both ships vary their trajectory and speed (even if just a little)]. They still hit, but not necessarily where you want them to. Would explain the AI's rather woeful performance with them, too! :).
steellwaters
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Re: The role of missiles

Postby steellwaters » Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:47 pm

What if missiles came back around. R
They still have a miss chance but after a random amount of time they try to hit again.....maybe 4 times or based on missle. That make them.somewhat usefull. You could still destroy them with defense drones. This would effectively make misses just delay the hit. You could still fire another missile while the first was still trying to hit.

Thats how missiles worked in a board game/RPG called battlestations that is similar to this.
tempthomas
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Re: The role of missiles

Postby tempthomas » Thu Apr 24, 2014 8:07 am

hy not just allow players to buy missiles for scrap inside their ship, for an extra cost compared to stores.

i've been watching videos while waiting for my dad to buy thi game. if players have not enough missiles let them make missiles with scrap. i see you can buy shields and stuff on the ship icon already so there you go.
Mendel
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Re: The role of missiles

Postby Mendel » Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:50 am

Had a run with defence scrambler and explosive replicator.

Missiles actually became not only useful but borderline op
ion bomb + pegasus + pike beam and the missiles never ran out.
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5thHorseman
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Re: The role of missiles

Postby 5thHorseman » Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:20 am

Mendel wrote:Had a run with defence scrambler and explosive replicator.

Missiles actually became not only useful but borderline op
ion bomb + pegasus + pike beam and the missiles never ran out.


So basically you were doing to the AI what they do to us all game. Good on you! :D
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stvip
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Re: The role of missiles

Postby stvip » Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:28 pm

The role of missiles is to go 'Kaboom!'.
This is my contribution.
Elhazzared
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Re: The role of missiles

Postby Elhazzared » Fri Apr 25, 2014 4:45 pm

I don't find missiles to be a bad choice. They can be completly OP no doubt. I'll tell you of a run I had on the mantis 2 cruiser.

I had found hermes missiles in 2 shops and I bought them specificly for the end boss (cause you know, bording from the begining and scrap isn't usually a problem). Later on I found a hull missile.

What I was using for the run before using the missiles. burst laser 2 x2 and a flak 2. I also had weapon pre-igniter.

So yeah, it was my most OP run if we take into acount the 4 crew teleporter and 4 mantis ready to go to town.

Anyway, I get to the boss fight with over 50 missiles (cause I saved them for the last fight).

As soon as it decloaks, hermes on the missile weapon, hermes on the heavy lasers, hull missile on the ion. Results, both heavy laser and missile system destroyed, crew immediatly at 50% health and a hull breach to fix. The ion system still operational and the crew and some 60% life. This also immediatly shaved 8 hull from the enemy ship.

Second volley took out the bridge, the last weapon and the ion and shaved 8 more damage off the ship.

Really, I didn't even took a single point of damage. You'd be surprised at how overpowered a single hermes missile can be. 3 damage, ignores shields, high chances of hull breach and 14 second reload time... Yeah!

On the second round I switched to my normal loadout because I was thinking, yeah, it's going to have defense drones so better not... as it turned out it had one and I could have afforded to waste the hull missile to get the herms in but doesn't matters, flak 2 immediatly takes shields out, 6 laser shots blow up all weapons system, tehn I take out the drone system so that the super weapon lasts less time. Took 1 damage in that engagement.

Third stage switched back to missiles. They melted the super shields quickly, then hermes missile took out both weapons and hull missile was only fired in systemless rooms for 4 points of damage rather than 2... it died pretty quickly although the super power and the super shields did allow it to put some 10 points of damage in me.

Are missile weapons bad? No, they definitly aren't... I can understand that sometimes they are not the best thing but let's be honest. But all weapons aren't good against all ships. Just as a teleporter is not good against airless ships.

Withthat in mind. Missiles are pretty good. Sure you're not really supposed to spam them until the boss fight and only if you have many at your disposal, but then again you are not supposed to spam drones in fights and so on. I find they are pretty good as they are. If I'd change anything it would be them droping in slightly higher quantities because of ships like the rock one which depends entirely on it in the beggining.
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Levgre
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Re: The role of missiles

Postby Levgre » Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:11 pm

You aren't supposed to spam drones, but you use a lot less drones per fight (1-2 per drone per active drone, replacing say a combat/defense drone that dies) than missiles per fight. 4+ missiles needed in a later battle isn't uncommon. No to mention drones can bring more utility, and split up power use between system.

And if you need to use pre-igniter with long CD weapons as your example of how missiles are good, that does not really prove anything about missiles. It's the pre-igniter which is getting you there. Lots of weapon setups are completely OP with it.

Of course, the bigger issue with missiles is not using them on the flagship, they are pretty good against it, since it has high shields, 'relatively' low dodge (lower than lots of the non-boss ships), and only a defense drone in one stage. The issue with missiles is having a strong arsenal in sectors 3-7, while not running out of ammunition.

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