List of things people don't like [From Reddit thread]

General discussion about the game.
velz
Posts: 18
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 5:25 pm

Re: List of things people don't like [From Reddit thread]

Postby velz » Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:46 pm

NoHeDoesnt wrote:
If the majority of your audience is saying something should be changed, whether you believe it doesn't fit your holy vision is moot; you need to change it to please your market.


Velz,
The developer does not have to or need to do anything to please the market. The developer (at a guess) has spent year/s on the game, he can release whatever he wants, whenever he wants, in whatever way he pleases. The game is likely as good as it is because it has such a singular vision, un-muddied by 1000's of generic 'cool ideaz'.

Yes I just signed up just to write this. So sick of people thinking they have some sort of ownership over the developer and somehow have more insight into game design, and can thus tell them what to do. It's his game, his holy vision, you play it, give your opinion and be off with you. You have no right to demand anything.


I don;t see why you would confuse the players thinking they have ownership and feeling entitled with a developer being smart and listening to the base that purchased his or her product to retain the fan base and possibly grow more fans by listening to the suggestions of long time players of the type of game the developer put out.

It's not about entitlement, you have it very very wrong. it's about sensibility. BTW the developer of this particular game crowd sourced the funds to make this game to begin with and if I'm not mistaken it only took a few months to create.

The devs have no obligation to listen to anyone on anything, you're right, but they would be idiotic not to.
Moosicorn
Posts: 107
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:13 pm

Re: List of things people don't like [From Reddit thread]

Postby Moosicorn » Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:58 pm

I don't think the developers should be so accepting of ideas that are opposite of what they have in mind though they should consider it themselves then evaluate if it's good. I do agree though they should DEFINATLY consider changing/fixing all the stuff mentioned, because after playing 15 hours I would agree your almost always following into one of the same patterns at the endgame Mabye you get slaughtered by boss all the sudden because you never were lucky enough to find the weapons you needed to atleast be able to do some damage
Eadmark
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:39 pm

Re: List of things people don't like [From Reddit thread]

Postby Eadmark » Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:00 pm

Velz, some excellent points. The devs have been crazy responsive to feedback and I know they welcome pretty much all criticism. They may not always change to fit, but I know it is taken into consideration. Some important things to remember about FTL though (some address concerns from other threads):

1) It's not NetHack in space - it's "roguelike" not rogue-clone. It has randomness, a tough learning curve, and permadeath. That's all they have in common. FTL is meant to have shorter play sessions, it is meant to allow you to use your imagination in fleshing out the plot. It is basic and simple on purpose. I like to imagine myself as a mercenary Mantis Captain delivering the information to the Federation in exchange for massive loot - half now, half upon delivery. And of course as any good Han Solo would I decide to join in the final battle.

2) You can beat the game with sweet drones, beat the game with sweet missiles/bombs, beat the game with sweet lasers/beams. There are not an infinite amount of combinations, but there a ton of different ways to approach the boss. That is what is so great about the unlockable ships - they push you towards these other play styles that you would never have tried out on your own. Before the Basilisk I would often lose to the boss unless I got just the right combination of laser weaponry- afterwards I became a mantis spamming lunatic! Sooo much fun.

3) It is not a slow thinking man's game - you would think this is the case from how long some of the combats take, and I admit to being frustrated originally by some of the weapon recharge times, and it really seams like a slow game if you just watch some Let's Plays. But it is all an illusion. This is the worlds first deceptively slow frantic-panic game. It is all about that beautiful moment when you FTL into a solar flare and are suddenly boarded by 4 Mantis and are dodging lasers from their mother ship. Then you FTL right out into a missile toting autoship. Woof. Spinning plates is right - and FTL hits that sweet spot of just the right amount of plates.

4) There is randomness, but this is a skill game - your tactics and decisions matter in FTL. If you are dying all the time (this is to everybody, not really Velz), I suggest playing on easy. I have about a 1/3 win to total plays ration right now and it is climbing and I'm certainly not the most skilled FTL player. For easy it is quite a bit higher, and with normal a bit lower - but 1/3 is the average. Why do I lose? Normally b/c I make a stupid mistake - kill a ship with my boarders on it, fail to notice that I haven't repowered my O2 in time, miscalculate how quickly the rebel armada is catching up, etc. Do I fail b/c of a bad run of luck? Yes. Frequently. I seem to ALWAYS end up facing solar flares and asteroid regions with the stealth ship prior to getting shields. Bugger. Of course, to offset that sometimes I have those incredible runs - stealth weapons, pre-igniter, scrap arm, 2 x burst IIs, and a breach 2 bomb, you know what I'm talking about. It all seems to even out in the long run, and the thing that separates the wins from the losses ends up being the player. All of that to say - yeah crazy learning curve, but doable.

I have logged over 365 hours in FTL (granted, most of it was before there was a save and quit feature so I just had to leave it running...) and have enjoyed every second. Do I like Binding of Isaac - yes, Dungeons of Dredmoor - yes, Dwarf Fortress - yes. FTL is not those games. I still like it. It provides the FUN I need and stimulates my imagination. I love it. I hope you can give it a chance without any ill-conceived comparisons.
Last edited by Eadmark on Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The New Romance
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:08 pm

Re: List of things people don't like [From Reddit thread]

Postby The New Romance » Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:11 pm

NoHeDoesnt wrote:
If the majority of your audience is saying something should be changed, whether you believe it doesn't fit your holy vision is moot; you need to change it to please your market.


Velz,
The developer does not have to or need to do anything to please the market. The developer (at a guess) has spent year/s on the game, he can release whatever he wants, whenever he wants, in whatever way he pleases. The game is likely as good as it is because it has such a singular vision, un-muddied by 1000's of generic 'cool ideaz'.

Yes I just signed up just to write this. So sick of people thinking they have some sort of ownership over the developer and somehow have more insight into game design, and can thus tell them what to do. It's his game, his holy vision, you play it, give your opinion and be off with you. You have no right to demand anything.

I'm afraid, but NoHeDoesnt is right. I feel the OP's screenplay example should've ended exactly the other way round, the writer should have turned its back on the producers who wanted to mess with his vision, because that's the frigging way that art is actually made - by staying true to your ideals, not by pleasing the market!

The game sure is random, that I'll give you. The extent to which it is and whether that hurts the game is debatable, though. I get the feeling that a certain portion of the player base is angry because they didn't win the game ten hours in. I don't know too much about "real" roguelikes, but they sure as hell don't hand out victory badges after five hours, and people claiming that they're fair and totally different from FTL's randomness and player-screwing attitude are dead wrong in my opinion. How many of you have done an Ascension in Nethack, and how long has it taken you? Now why are you angry that you couldn't win FTL on the second day the game is out?
velz
Posts: 18
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 5:25 pm

Re: List of things people don't like [From Reddit thread]

Postby velz » Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:19 pm

The New Romance wrote:
NoHeDoesnt wrote:
If the majority of your audience is saying something should be changed, whether you believe it doesn't fit your holy vision is moot; you need to change it to please your market.


Velz,
The developer does not have to or need to do anything to please the market. The developer (at a guess) has spent year/s on the game, he can release whatever he wants, whenever he wants, in whatever way he pleases. The game is likely as good as it is because it has such a singular vision, un-muddied by 1000's of generic 'cool ideaz'.

Yes I just signed up just to write this. So sick of people thinking they have some sort of ownership over the developer and somehow have more insight into game design, and can thus tell them what to do. It's his game, his holy vision, you play it, give your opinion and be off with you. You have no right to demand anything.


I'm afraid, but NoHeDoesnt is right.

I'm afraid that's just your opinion though, sorry, and mine holds more weight in the real world.

I feel the OP's screenplay example should've ended exactly the other way round, the writer should have turned its back on the producers who wanted to mess with his vision, because that's the frigging way that art is actually made - by staying true to your ideals, not by pleasing the market!


HAH! Good luck surviving off your idealism and ignoring the market. The welfare sign up line is right this way...
kfk
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:40 pm

Re: List of things people don't like [From Reddit thread]

Postby kfk » Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:27 pm

velz wrote: there being an abundance of complaints on a niche group of game aspects


There being an abundance of complaints from people not willing to spend 20 scrap to upgrade doors, and then complaining that boarding parties are too powerful.

The devs have no obligation to listen to anyone on anything, you're right, but they would be idiotic not to.


They'd be idiotic TO listen to these people. The core principles of this game are solid, and the implementation of those principles is generally well executed. Some of these complaints are valid, but almost all of them have at least a stripe of being unfamiliar with the game (like not forming good counter-invasion strategies, or poor exploration methods).

I'm not saying there aren't problems. When the first thing you encounter on a New Game is a shop you can't possibly make use of, there's a case for some tweaks to the RNG. I'm for random BS making things difficult, but that's just mean.

Weapon balance is wonky too, especially at the high end. The power requirements and charge times of high end weaponry just doesn't add up (at times) compared to modest, easier to find, easier to operate, cheaper, more flexible alternatives (it's just math). Maybe there was intent to create clear winners and losers, and what you get is up to the dice, if that can be confirmed I'll accept it, but otherwise it doesn't sit right with me.
The New Romance
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:08 pm

Re: List of things people don't like [From Reddit thread]

Postby The New Romance » Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:30 pm

velz wrote:I'm afraid that's just your opinion though, sorry, and mine holds more weight in the real world.

HAH! Good luck surviving off your idealism and ignoring the market. The welfare sign up line is right this way...

Well, I guess this discussion is over, then. Two replies in, you're already ridiculing me and making outrageous claims. I didn't know someone died and made your opinion king, so sorry for that. I guess FTL should be turned into a football manager or a first-person press-X-to-win shooter the first possible instant, because hey Subset, that's what people want! Make it so! I demand it, because I didn't get my 10$ of fun out of this game (seriously, 10$ is nothing, and you've been playing the game for at least a two-digited amount of hours and complain?).
Maze1125
Posts: 144
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 12:09 pm

Re: List of things people don't like [From Reddit thread]

Postby Maze1125 » Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:44 pm

velz wrote:It's not about entitlement, you have it very very wrong. it's about sensibility. BTW the developer of this particular game crowd sourced the funds to make this game to begin with and if I'm not mistaken it only took a few months to create.


*facepalm*

No they didn't. They built the game themselves for ages before the Kickstarter drive, which they did purely the make enough funds to release the game that they had already made.

They had previewers and magazines playing the game months before drive even occurred. This is not a crowd funded game, this is a game where crowd funding made things slightly easier for the developers in the final stages of release. It would have been made with or without the Kickstarter.
velz
Posts: 18
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 5:25 pm

Re: List of things people don't like [From Reddit thread]

Postby velz » Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:10 am

The New Romance wrote:
velz wrote:I'm afraid that's just your opinion though, sorry, and mine holds more weight in the real world.

HAH! Good luck surviving off your idealism and ignoring the market. The welfare sign up line is right this way...

Well, I guess this discussion is over, then. Two replies in, you're already ridiculing me and making outrageous claims. I didn't know someone died and made your opinion king, so sorry for that. I guess FTL should be turned into a football manager or a first-person press-X-to-win shooter the first possible instant, because hey Subset, that's what people want! Make it so! I demand it, because I didn't get my 10$ of fun out of this game (seriously, 10$ is nothing, and you've been playing the game for at least a two-digited amount of hours and complain?).



Ah, I see, your claims aren't outrageous at all. It's all me. Gotcha. But seriously, try living off stubborn idealism and trying to force your creations into a market that doesn't necessarily want them exactly as is and trying to survive. Last I checked, people make things to sell to live off of because they want their passions to support them through life, not have their passions leave them sleeping in boxes in an alley.
Uniform764
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 6:12 pm

Re: List of things people don't like [From Reddit thread]

Postby Uniform764 » Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:16 am

The New Romance wrote:The extent to which it is and whether that hurts the game is debatable, though. I get the feeling that a certain portion of the player base is angry because they didn't win the game ten hours in. I don't know too much about "real" roguelikes, but they sure as hell don't hand out victory badges after five hours, and people claiming that they're fair and totally different from FTL's randomness and player-screwing attitude are dead wrong in my opinion. How many of you have done an Ascension in Nethack, and how long has it taken you? Now why are you angry that you couldn't win FTL on the second day the game is out?


The only other games of this style I've played are Dungeons of Dredmor, or Binding of Isaac. I've never finished either of those and yet I'd say they're...I'm loathe to say better but I can't think of a better word. I expect a roguelike to be difficult and complete runs to be a rarity. Less binary perhaps would be a better way to describe it? It's not that complete runs are rare, its that incomplete runs seem to be far to arbitrary, eg "you hit this sector and now you penetrate none of their shields, you lose"

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