I really don't think you can put the Kestral brothers next to Rock A. A missile-focused ship sails in fear of running out of ammunition, in addition to being out-gunned and out of fuel. It has more things to worry about than the other ships you put in the same tier.
Stealth B should not be at the bottom. I haven't won with the Rock A, yet I have done so with the Stealth B. It just has a high learning curve. Yes, it has to find some weapons to even beat the flagship, but the Glaive Beam can literally work with ANY weapon that can damage the shields. It theoretically needs just one, and it can come from a store or an event. OTOH, the Rock A needs to continually pick up enough ammo, until it can find at least two non-missile weapons, or a teleporter, which is not found outside of stores (and not guaranteed to be at a store either). It seems to me that the Rock A may require as much luck as the Stealth B.
The Slug A has a quite a few problems that makes it not as effective as boarding-oriented ships or pure firepower ships. If you want to use the Anti-Bio Beam, it means that
1) Physically fighting the crew actually "un-mans" the system they are in. You can't take the enemy crew off of the system if you didn't kill them with the Bio Beam, so you are not getting the same benefits as boarding.
2) You have to rely on your shield-strippers to not miss on the second barrage, else you risk erasing the damage your first did. Meanwhile, you are barely doing system damage at all. You are still under fire while your beam recharges, unlike the other weapon based ships that has already disabled the enemy weapons, with the weapons slot the Bio Beam has taken up.
Ship Tier List [SPOILERS]
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966socho
- Posts: 93
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seacows
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:15 pm
Re: Ship Tier List [SPOILERS]
Stealth B is definitely at the bottom. Did you read anything I wrote?
It costs 50 and 75 to upgrade to level 5 and 6 weapons respectively, and another 25+25 to power those weapons. You have to majorly luck out in order to find an ion bomb, or you're faced with spending at least 175 to power a 2-power bar weapon that will help take down shields before using your glaive beam. Not to mention, you need to have bought shields around sector 3+4 AND found weapons. (that is unless you find a pre-ignitor).
Anybody can luck out and find a pre-ignitor in Sector 1 while using the Stealth B. Try playing the Stealth B 50 times in a row before you assume that it isn't as bad as you think. You're dead if you run into a Zoltan Ship. You're dead if you run into a ship with drones. You're dead if your weapons system gets hit once, and the enemy's ship armanent isn't totally garbage. The heavy laser marks and mini beams in sector 1 really will screw you up hard if any of them hit. There is no way to avoid getting hit by a mini beam before you can shoot your glaive beam unless you upgrade your cloak for 50 scrap (delaying getting shields). The worst thing about this ship is that you continuously have to take fights because you badly need scrap to get shields, and eventually you run into a ship that screws you over.
A zoltan and 2 humans are terrible for fending off enemy invaders, and you practically need to keep a crewmember on weapons to offset the long charge time. The ship's layout is terrible for venting (oxygen and door control are located 2 rooms away from nearest oxygen vent) and you only get 2 slots for a medbay.
As far as I'm concerned, you don't have anywhere close to that hard of a time surviving with the Rock A. You might need to eventually find weapons that don't consume ammo, but at least you have 3 rocks as a starting crew and shields to begin with.
And to be honest, I was expecting people who discuss a tier list to at least have a couple of victories for every ship in the game.
It costs 50 and 75 to upgrade to level 5 and 6 weapons respectively, and another 25+25 to power those weapons. You have to majorly luck out in order to find an ion bomb, or you're faced with spending at least 175 to power a 2-power bar weapon that will help take down shields before using your glaive beam. Not to mention, you need to have bought shields around sector 3+4 AND found weapons. (that is unless you find a pre-ignitor).
Anybody can luck out and find a pre-ignitor in Sector 1 while using the Stealth B. Try playing the Stealth B 50 times in a row before you assume that it isn't as bad as you think. You're dead if you run into a Zoltan Ship. You're dead if you run into a ship with drones. You're dead if your weapons system gets hit once, and the enemy's ship armanent isn't totally garbage. The heavy laser marks and mini beams in sector 1 really will screw you up hard if any of them hit. There is no way to avoid getting hit by a mini beam before you can shoot your glaive beam unless you upgrade your cloak for 50 scrap (delaying getting shields). The worst thing about this ship is that you continuously have to take fights because you badly need scrap to get shields, and eventually you run into a ship that screws you over.
A zoltan and 2 humans are terrible for fending off enemy invaders, and you practically need to keep a crewmember on weapons to offset the long charge time. The ship's layout is terrible for venting (oxygen and door control are located 2 rooms away from nearest oxygen vent) and you only get 2 slots for a medbay.
As far as I'm concerned, you don't have anywhere close to that hard of a time surviving with the Rock A. You might need to eventually find weapons that don't consume ammo, but at least you have 3 rocks as a starting crew and shields to begin with.
And to be honest, I was expecting people who discuss a tier list to at least have a couple of victories for every ship in the game.
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966socho
- Posts: 93
- Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:11 pm
Re: Ship Tier List [SPOILERS]
For the record, I have played every ship more than a couple of times, and the Rock A is the last ship I have yet to get a victory with. Perhaps it's because I refuse to play on easy, but with the Rock A I have yet to luck into enough ammo/non-missile weapons or get enough scrap to switch to boarding. I have also never had an early Pre-Igniter with the Stealth B.
@seacows, It just seems that we have different play styles, and therefore different ideas for how a ship is good. I tend to favor power, while you like ships to be able to survive. The Stealth B is a literal glass cannon, so I understand if you dislike its fragility and don't care for its power, but you may have underestimated its survivability.
You can definitely survive and even thrive without any shields for more than a couple of sectors (or the entire game, since Shield-less runs have been done). It's also unnecessary to take every fight, as you can still get resources from non-combat options like taking the bribe from pirates, and many non-combat events, such as the blue option for cutting out a trapped miner ship. You can even choose not to encounter ships, which is the entire point of Long-Range Scanners.
As for supposedly lethal enemies, there is only a low chance you will encounter them, and even then you can take measures to minimize that chance. You will only take a couple of damage up against a Mini-Beam, which is acceptable for a single fight. Other beam weapons do not have a fast enough charge time for Level 2+ Cloaking. Weapon drones AFAIK, only spawns for two classes of ships -- The Rebel Rigger and the Auto-Assault. They won't always have the system, and even then they might not have the drone. I won't go into details, but many of the events they may appear in are avoidable if you don't want to take the risk. Energy shields ARE a problem, I admit, but energy ships won't always have them. (As an aside, boarding-based ships can't touch them and the missile-based Rock A would waste a lot of ammo fighting them.)
Yes, the layout is pretty shitty, but Level 2 Doors is only 20 scrap away, and that improves your anti-boarding/fire-fighting ability by hell of a lot. I also tend to not overly rely on venting for repelling boarders, i.e. no "HURR I VENT EVERYTHING BUT TEH MEDBAY". And once again, you can choose beacons that maximize your chance of crew, courtesy of your Long-Range Scanners.
One more thing. You do not have to worry about missing with the Glaive Beam, because it does NOT miss. For comparison, consider Engi B's Heavy Ion + Heavy Laser. If either of those misses, you are forced to wait for another cycle. With the Stealth B it's always GG once you get to fire your weapons.
I'm not saying that Stealth B belongs in the top tiers, but it certainly isn't the worst ship ever.
@seacows, It just seems that we have different play styles, and therefore different ideas for how a ship is good. I tend to favor power, while you like ships to be able to survive. The Stealth B is a literal glass cannon, so I understand if you dislike its fragility and don't care for its power, but you may have underestimated its survivability.
You can definitely survive and even thrive without any shields for more than a couple of sectors (or the entire game, since Shield-less runs have been done). It's also unnecessary to take every fight, as you can still get resources from non-combat options like taking the bribe from pirates, and many non-combat events, such as the blue option for cutting out a trapped miner ship. You can even choose not to encounter ships, which is the entire point of Long-Range Scanners.
As for supposedly lethal enemies, there is only a low chance you will encounter them, and even then you can take measures to minimize that chance. You will only take a couple of damage up against a Mini-Beam, which is acceptable for a single fight. Other beam weapons do not have a fast enough charge time for Level 2+ Cloaking. Weapon drones AFAIK, only spawns for two classes of ships -- The Rebel Rigger and the Auto-Assault. They won't always have the system, and even then they might not have the drone. I won't go into details, but many of the events they may appear in are avoidable if you don't want to take the risk. Energy shields ARE a problem, I admit, but energy ships won't always have them. (As an aside, boarding-based ships can't touch them and the missile-based Rock A would waste a lot of ammo fighting them.)
Yes, the layout is pretty shitty, but Level 2 Doors is only 20 scrap away, and that improves your anti-boarding/fire-fighting ability by hell of a lot. I also tend to not overly rely on venting for repelling boarders, i.e. no "HURR I VENT EVERYTHING BUT TEH MEDBAY". And once again, you can choose beacons that maximize your chance of crew, courtesy of your Long-Range Scanners.
One more thing. You do not have to worry about missing with the Glaive Beam, because it does NOT miss. For comparison, consider Engi B's Heavy Ion + Heavy Laser. If either of those misses, you are forced to wait for another cycle. With the Stealth B it's always GG once you get to fire your weapons.
I'm not saying that Stealth B belongs in the top tiers, but it certainly isn't the worst ship ever.
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seacows
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:15 pm
Re: Ship Tier List [SPOILERS]
966socho wrote:For the record, I have played every ship more than a couple of times, and the Rock A is the last ship I have yet to get a victory with. Perhaps it's because I refuse to play on easy, but with the Rock A I have yet to luck into enough ammo/non-missile weapons or get enough scrap to switch to boarding. I have also never had an early Pre-Igniter with the Stealth B.
@seacows, It just seems that we have different play styles, and therefore different ideas for how a ship is good. I tend to favor power, while you like ships to be able to survive. The Stealth B is a literal glass cannon, so I understand if you dislike its fragility and don't care for its power, but you may have underestimated its survivability.
You say you haven't had enough luck to survive with the Rock A, but you say that the Stealth B has more survivability. It sounds like you haven't played enough of either ship to consistently get a feel for how difficult the Stealth B is. Sure, you might have been able to luck out in your single Stealth B run, but that does not in anyway mean that the Stealth B is consistently easier to win with.
966socho wrote:You can definitely survive and even thrive without any shields for more than a couple of sectors (or the entire game, since Shield-less runs have been done).
You cannot CONSISTENTLY survive (lol thrive) without shields for more than 3 sectors. At some point, you should run into an enemy ship with drones or cloak, and you will not be able to one shot the ship. Shield-less runs have only been done with the assistance of either defense 2 drones or a pre-ignitor, and both of those require a lot of luck to acquire with significant scrap investment. (check reddit.com/r/ftlgame for evidence).
966socho wrote:It's also unnecessary to take every fight, as you can still get resources from non-combat options like taking the bribe from pirates, and many non-combat events, such as the blue option for cutting out a trapped miner ship. You can even choose not to encounter ships, which is the entire point of Long-Range Scanners.
This is a major part of your argument that I have significant problems with. Taking fights and winning them is the only reliably consistent way to gain scrap in this game. If you keep on going to beacons with no enemies, you're leaving it up to major luck that you get favorable events where you get scrap. What if you run into giant spiders, enemy invasions, mercenaries, slavers, and pirate tolls every other jump? Your scrap potential gets cut down immensely.
966socho wrote:As for supposedly lethal enemies, there is only a low chance you will encounter them, and even then you can take measures to minimize that chance. You will only take a couple of damage up against a Mini-Beam, which is acceptable for a single fight. Other beam weapons do not have a fast enough charge time for Level 2+ Cloaking.
You completely misunderstood what I said in regards to the mini-beam. The mini-beam hits by tiles and moves inward, and your weapons system happens to be 4 tiles big and close to the center of the ship. So theres a decent chance that your weapons system will eventually get hit by rebel riggers/mini beam. If it hits your weapons system, you're gonna be looking at close to ten-seconds for repair time, and then another 25s glaive beam charge - 10s of cloak time =15s for your weapon to get up. So thats about another 2 volleys you have to take before you can get off your glaive beam. Even if you majorly luck out and your weapon system doesn't get hit again, you're looking at a lot of hull damage.
966socho wrote:Weapon drones AFAIK, only spawns for two classes of ships -- The Rebel Rigger and the Auto-Assault. They won't always have the system, and even then they might not have the drone. I won't go into details, but many of the events they may appear in are avoidable if you don't want to take the risk. Energy shields ARE a problem, I admit, but energy ships won't always have them. (As an aside, boarding-based ships can't touch them and the missile-based Rock A would waste a lot of ammo fighting them.)
This is wrong. It also spawns in zoltan ships and engi ships. They're not avoidable if you don't have enough scrap, which happens infrequently in the first sector. Against Zoltan ships, you have to wait 50 seconds to get 2 glaive beam shots. Your cloaking will only be enough to dodge a single volley, so you're not looking at good chances for survival. Beam ships are basically gg (http://www.reddit.com/r/ftlgame/comment ... r_serving/)
966socho wrote:Yes, the layout is pretty shitty, but Level 2 Doors is only 20 scrap away, and that improves your anti-boarding/fire-fighting ability by hell of a lot. I also tend to not overly rely on venting for repelling boarders, i.e. no "HURR I VENT EVERYTHING BUT TEH MEDBAY". And once again, you can choose beacons that maximize your chance of crew, courtesy of your Long-Range Scanners.
So you leave it up to luck again to acquire more crew. Going to beacons with no enemies does not guarantee you in the slightest more crew.
966socho wrote:One more thing. You do not have to worry about missing with the Glaive Beam, because it does NOT miss. For comparison, consider Engi B's Heavy Ion + Heavy Laser. If either of those misses, you are forced to wait for another cycle. With the Stealth B it's always GG once you get to fire your weapons.
No duh beams have perfect accuracy. And no, you can not one-shot one of the automated ships' layout (AutoAssault) in the first sector. So its not always GG.
966socho wrote:I'm not saying that Stealth B belongs in the top tiers, but it certainly isn't the worst ship ever.
Your arguments of lucking out and acquiring weapons/scrap/crew can be applied to every ship in the game.
A ship tier list should only examine the starting profile of each ship, and the Glaive Beam's 25 seconds chargetime, no shields, and no expensive augments really hurts its chances to do well. For the purposes of a ship tier list, we're looking at which ships are CONSISTENTLY easier/harder to beat the game with. So by that definition, yes, Stealth B happens to be the worst ship in the game.
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5thHorseman
- Posts: 1668
- Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2013 2:29 am
Re: Ship Tier List [SPOILERS]
I've won with both the DA-SR12 and the Bulwark (once each on YouTube even) several times, and I can say the DA-SR12 is by no means a sure-shot victory. However, if you play it 5-6 times you're pretty likely to get a couple serious chances to win the game.
Losing 4 times in sector 1, once in the middle of the game, and winning once seems like a pretty good way to spend an afternoon to me
I don't understand this quote. Why is using the single best strategy when your crew is weak and theirs strong a "HURR" move? It's like saying, "HURR I START MY GLAIVE BEAM IN THEIR SHIELDS"
Losing 4 times in sector 1, once in the middle of the game, and winning once seems like a pretty good way to spend an afternoon to me
966socho wrote:"HURR I VENT EVERYTHING BUT TEH MEDBAY"
I don't understand this quote. Why is using the single best strategy when your crew is weak and theirs strong a "HURR" move? It's like saying, "HURR I START MY GLAIVE BEAM IN THEIR SHIELDS"
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BKT
- Posts: 211
- Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:17 am
Re: Ship Tier List [SPOILERS]
seacows wrote:Shield-less runs have only been done with the assistance of either defense 2 drones or a pre-ignitor, and both of those require a lot of luck to acquire with significant scrap investment. (check reddit.com/r/ftlgame for evidence).
I've done it without either (I got hull repair drone at sector 8) ... The trick is to get a couple or more of fast-firing weapons and ditch the Glaive ASAP— When in battle, Focus-fire at drone room if VS attack drones and at weapon room if no drones left, and timing your cloak accordingly to the the threats (sometime it's better to cloak right at the beginning of battle, sometime it's better to wait) ... Hermes missile is very good at this since it fire quite fast, ignored shield, fairly common & cheap, good dmg and has good chance of fire/breach.
If you could manage to get that, you won't going to need anything else until late game; I actually reached sector 5 with only 9 power in reactor + 1 from zoltan— 6 on weapon (Ion blast, BL2, BL1 / Halberd), 1 for oxy , and 2 in cloak. Zoltan is either on the cloak or engine room depends on what's needed ... You don't need drone if you have enough firepower, save scraps to repair your ship and buy better weapon or missiles instead.
You can also buy Telepad+Crews and capturing ships after you're comfortably able to disabling enemy's attack capability— I did just that once I reached sector 5-6
BTW: My vote go for Rock_B for the best ship. Also, Kestrel_A is better than Kestrel_B and both Zoltan are meh IMO.
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Twinge
- Posts: 281
- Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:04 am
Re: Ship Tier List [SPOILERS]
Greetings again featherwings, I've had some more time to play and consider the various ships. I'd say the most glaring thing on the list is The Basilisk - 4-man teleporters are just too damn OP, and it even has a boarding drone which can destroy Auto-Scouts, unlike the Carnelian. I'd say the biggest issue is actually the inability to repair worth a damn with your starting crew (both because you only have 2 and because they're Mantis), but that usually won't matter too much with your Tier 2 shields and Defense Drone.
Beyond that, I'd definitely put The Torus higher - Starting Ion 3 and Anti-Ship is very very strong. Your starting equipment can break through any number of shields (barring high-level cloaking), and you can also get multiple shots on early ships before they have any chance to fire - often saving you hull damage.
Here's my current take, with ships also ranked within their tiers:
Tier 0 (God Tier):
Carnelian
The Basilisk
Tier 1:
The Torus
Red-Tail
Bravais (Weaponry getting shot down by defense drones combined with their slow fire rate brings this down slightly.)
Tier 2:
Noether (**Dropped to Tier 2 after further thought)
The Osprey (Boarding party in the starting crew brings this up more than the inability to cloak brings it down.)
Shivan (Good boarding party with an excellent laser to start, but also has a weak layout with no ability to vent fires/boarders.)
The Gila Monster (Boarding is OP; this ship is much worse than its brother, but that doesn't change the fact that boarding is OP and this ship has it + perfect boarders to start.)
Man of War (Has 2 amazing weapons to start, and is also setup to get the same bonus rewards boarding ships get. Slow firing Bio Beam is the main weakness here, and obviously the 2 crew isn't ideal either.)
The Nesasio (Dual Laser + Mini Beam is a very strong combo early on, and with their cooldowns and your Cloaking+Engines you can survive most threats completely unscathed. If its crew was more exciting I'd rate it even higher.)
The Kestrel
Tier 3:
Nisos (A clearly inferior version of The Osprey.)
Bulwark (Not quite terrible for similar reasons as the Shivan is good - get a teleporter and you already have a great boarding party.)
The Adjudicator
Tier 4:
The Stormwalker
DA-SR 12 (I see why many would place this alongside The Vortex - unlike its brother The Nesasio, its early game is very luck heavy. However, it does have a very strong weapon that starts getting pretty safe around the time you can afford 70 scrap for another cloaking level.)
Tier 5 (Garbage Tier):
The Vortex (The combination of only 1 crewman combined with the complete inability to bypass Tier 2 shields with starting equipment - a flaw NO other ship has - makes this simply worse than everything else in the game.)
Beyond that, I'd definitely put The Torus higher - Starting Ion 3 and Anti-Ship is very very strong. Your starting equipment can break through any number of shields (barring high-level cloaking), and you can also get multiple shots on early ships before they have any chance to fire - often saving you hull damage.
Here's my current take, with ships also ranked within their tiers:
Tier 0 (God Tier):
Carnelian
The Basilisk
Tier 1:
The Torus
Red-Tail
Bravais (Weaponry getting shot down by defense drones combined with their slow fire rate brings this down slightly.)
Tier 2:
Noether (**Dropped to Tier 2 after further thought)
The Osprey (Boarding party in the starting crew brings this up more than the inability to cloak brings it down.)
Shivan (Good boarding party with an excellent laser to start, but also has a weak layout with no ability to vent fires/boarders.)
The Gila Monster (Boarding is OP; this ship is much worse than its brother, but that doesn't change the fact that boarding is OP and this ship has it + perfect boarders to start.)
Man of War (Has 2 amazing weapons to start, and is also setup to get the same bonus rewards boarding ships get. Slow firing Bio Beam is the main weakness here, and obviously the 2 crew isn't ideal either.)
The Nesasio (Dual Laser + Mini Beam is a very strong combo early on, and with their cooldowns and your Cloaking+Engines you can survive most threats completely unscathed. If its crew was more exciting I'd rate it even higher.)
The Kestrel
Tier 3:
Nisos (A clearly inferior version of The Osprey.)
Bulwark (Not quite terrible for similar reasons as the Shivan is good - get a teleporter and you already have a great boarding party.)
The Adjudicator
Tier 4:
The Stormwalker
DA-SR 12 (I see why many would place this alongside The Vortex - unlike its brother The Nesasio, its early game is very luck heavy. However, it does have a very strong weapon that starts getting pretty safe around the time you can afford 70 scrap for another cloaking level.)
Tier 5 (Garbage Tier):
The Vortex (The combination of only 1 crewman combined with the complete inability to bypass Tier 2 shields with starting equipment - a flaw NO other ship has - makes this simply worse than everything else in the game.)
Last edited by Twinge on Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Cragspyder
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:00 am
Re: Ship Tier List [SPOILERS]
A lot of this I agree with. However, I recommend a reduction to just five tiers. As well:
Tier 0: Carnelian, Basilisk.
No issues here. Basilisk is extremely strong despite the threat of Zoltan ships, and if Carnelian is close then it deserves to be here as well. Haven't unlocked it yet, though.
Tier 1: Torus, Red-Tail, Bravais, Noether.
I am surprised to see the Noether above the Adjudicator, especially TWO tiers above it. I just don't see how no normal shields and a Pike Beam is that much stronger then 1 layer of shields and a Halberd Beam. But I don't have a lot of experience in the Zoltan ships.
I don't think Torus deserves to be above the Osprey. Osprey has better crew, roughly the same amount of blue options, and probably just as easy of an early game if not easier. And the Osprey is still fine against 2 shield ships wheras the Torus theoretically might struggle if the Ion Blast II starts to miss. Not to mention the Torus can run out of drone parts.
Tier 2: Osprey, Shivan, Gila Monster, Man-O-War, Nesasio, Kestrel
Like I said, I think Osprey is the same tier as the Torus, and probably the Shivan is as well. Shivan has such a strong early game and transitions so well into boarding. I don't think the Nesasio deserves to be so high. Four engines is great and all but the cloak is weak, the weapons are weak, and the crew is weak. It is just so vulnerable to bad luck and what were normally trivial ships (Dual beam Rebel Rigger, anyone?) can end the game instantly for you.
Tier 3: Nisos, Bulwark, Adjudicator
Don't quite get why the Adjudicator deserves to be down here. Otherwise I agree.
Tier 4: Stormwalker, DA-SR-12
Tier 5: Vortex
I suggest amalgamating these into one tier. Maybe you really hate the Vortex but I really hate the DA-SR 12, so we might as well put all three of them in the crap tier and leave it at that.
Honestly, if I had to edit your tierlist, I would go:
Tier 1: Basilisk, Carnilian
Tier 2: Bravais, Osprey, Shivan, Red-Tail, Torus, Noether
Tier 3: Gila Monster, Adjudicator, Kestrel
Tier 4: Bulwark, Nisos, Nesasio, Man-O-War
Tier 5: Stormwalker, DA-SR-12, Vortex
Which to be honest is a lot like the OP's originally posted list. I kept your assessment of the Noether vs. Adjudicator but lessened the tier difference, since I don't feel I am qualified to speak on those ships.
I imagine a lot of this will be personal preference anyways, but it might be useful for other players to see how difficult a new ship will be to play, relatively.
Tier 0: Carnelian, Basilisk.
No issues here. Basilisk is extremely strong despite the threat of Zoltan ships, and if Carnelian is close then it deserves to be here as well. Haven't unlocked it yet, though.
Tier 1: Torus, Red-Tail, Bravais, Noether.
I am surprised to see the Noether above the Adjudicator, especially TWO tiers above it. I just don't see how no normal shields and a Pike Beam is that much stronger then 1 layer of shields and a Halberd Beam. But I don't have a lot of experience in the Zoltan ships.
I don't think Torus deserves to be above the Osprey. Osprey has better crew, roughly the same amount of blue options, and probably just as easy of an early game if not easier. And the Osprey is still fine against 2 shield ships wheras the Torus theoretically might struggle if the Ion Blast II starts to miss. Not to mention the Torus can run out of drone parts.
Tier 2: Osprey, Shivan, Gila Monster, Man-O-War, Nesasio, Kestrel
Like I said, I think Osprey is the same tier as the Torus, and probably the Shivan is as well. Shivan has such a strong early game and transitions so well into boarding. I don't think the Nesasio deserves to be so high. Four engines is great and all but the cloak is weak, the weapons are weak, and the crew is weak. It is just so vulnerable to bad luck and what were normally trivial ships (Dual beam Rebel Rigger, anyone?) can end the game instantly for you.
Tier 3: Nisos, Bulwark, Adjudicator
Don't quite get why the Adjudicator deserves to be down here. Otherwise I agree.
Tier 4: Stormwalker, DA-SR-12
Tier 5: Vortex
I suggest amalgamating these into one tier. Maybe you really hate the Vortex but I really hate the DA-SR 12, so we might as well put all three of them in the crap tier and leave it at that.
Honestly, if I had to edit your tierlist, I would go:
Tier 1: Basilisk, Carnilian
Tier 2: Bravais, Osprey, Shivan, Red-Tail, Torus, Noether
Tier 3: Gila Monster, Adjudicator, Kestrel
Tier 4: Bulwark, Nisos, Nesasio, Man-O-War
Tier 5: Stormwalker, DA-SR-12, Vortex
Which to be honest is a lot like the OP's originally posted list. I kept your assessment of the Noether vs. Adjudicator but lessened the tier difference, since I don't feel I am qualified to speak on those ships.
I imagine a lot of this will be personal preference anyways, but it might be useful for other players to see how difficult a new ship will be to play, relatively.
Last edited by Cragspyder on Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Twinge
- Posts: 281
- Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:04 am
Re: Ship Tier List [SPOILERS]
Crag - You're confusing me with the OP =)
Like The Torus, the Noether has the equipment to bypass any number of shield bubbles right from the start - this is quite powerful indeed. Combining those Dual Ion Blast 1s with essentially any weapon is powerful - your starting Pike Beam does good work, but later finding a Halberd, lasers, or anything else can combo well too.
That said, I was somewhat unsure on the placement; I could easily see dropping it to mid Tier 2, because it should have more problems with early Drones than anything else save the DA-SR 12. In general it's rated highly and I've always had good runs with it myself, so it may feel a little better than it is in reality.
As for the Adjudicator - it does nothing well and also has weaknesses. It has a crappy boarding crew, and the only way it can bypass Tier 2 shields is by using the crappy Leto - good that the option is there, but it's still a crappy option. It also starts pretty ill-equipped in general - level 1 engines, average level 3 weapons, and Zoltan crew replacing normal power -- which is a fair bit worse until your reactor is capped at the very end of the game. The Zoltan shield and doors are nice and do mostly cover what would be the other major weakness - boarders. They can still be a definite nuisance, though.
Osprey does have better crew for sure - boarding party ready to go. I disagree with the rest, though - BL2 is an amazing weapon, but it's only average speed - you'll be hit by Artemis, Leto, or enemy lasers before you have any hope of taking their weapons down. Meanwhile, The Torus has a random element with the Anti-Ship, but it can potentially take down weapons before they ever fire - especially against early opposition. You can also ionize weapon systems for this effect too.
I'd also say the BL2 is going to struggle against Tier 2 shields a lot more than Ion II + AS will. Both have to hit 3 times in a row to bypass the shields, but once the Ion gets their the AS can start going to town, while the BL2 probably did 1 damage to shields and then has to wait another 10.8s to fire again. The Ion 3 also has the subtle advantage of leveling your weapons officer much more quickly.
The Osprey has the Artillery Beam, of course, but even with a 2nd level you're looking at a 40s cooldown - enough time for most enemy weaponry to fire 3 full volleys (and most larger missiles to fire two). That's a lot of hull damage you're taking before it goes off.
Drone parts are a possible concern, though you should remain in parity or positive when only using one drone, especially if you take appropriate surrenders. The Torus is also ready to roll with a defense drone if you find one, while The Osprey needs to buy the system and get a Defense Drone (usually) - and it doesn't have the option of cloaking at all.
It's possible I rate the Shivan a tad low; people in general tend to rate it very very highly. I personally think the Fire Bomb + Rock boarders is rather overrated (though still useful). It also has no door system and a poor ship layout, meaning boarders can still be a nuisance and fires even worse (while Rockmen don't take damage from fire, they also don't put them out faster than normal; Engi are still much better at fire management).
That said, it does have solid boarders to start, and it has a very strong laser to roll with until you can buy teleporters. The speed of the laser means you're still generally going to eat small missiles but you can avoid most slower threats, such as Burst Laser 2s or bigger missiles, and it has a solid fire/breach chance to boot.
Overall I feel people tend to rate the Shivan too highly, but I could still be underrating it slightly as well.
The Nesasio is my favorite ship - I wanted to put it even higher because it can do great work when played well, but it does still have major flaws that bring it down. First, though: The cloak is very very strong, and the weapons are also very strong early on (Dual Lasers are super strong late too, but a little awkward with the 3 weapon slots). The crew does suck and it had some issues, but they are vastly overstated in my experience.
An early Rigger with a Beam Drone and a Mini-Beam equipped is honestly not something that scares me too much - it's completely different from the DA-SR 12 and is absolutely not an instant game over. I expect to take about 4 damage from that situation on average, though sometimes it'll go badly and I'll take more. The keys are a) set your Dual Lasers to slot 1, b) time your cloaking carefully, and c) fire your weapons carefully. If weapons fail, your FTL should be charging and you can generally jump away.
And beyond drones, you can avoid nearly all damage early on with The Nesasio with your cloaking. Learning weapon timing - e.g., if they have both a Heavy Laser and a Basic Laser, don't cloak right when they fire the HL - wait just until the BL fires and you can avoid both with the same cloak.
See http://www.twitch.tv/darktwinge/c/2338542 for a video demonstrating some of these tips.
As I said, it does still have definite problems - the crew is weak, and having only 3 weapon slots is a major drawback. But it's actually really strong early in most cases and can use that early strength to buy up those shields, cloaking levels, etc. to keep you alive through the mid game.
As I mentioned, I can easily see putting the Stealth B on the same level as The Vortex - it has some *major* problems. I feel these problems aren't quite as drastic on average (though they do rely on playing the DA-SR 12 well), but I'm not certain of this.
The Stormwalker isn't on the same level as The Vortex. It has major issues too, but 3 crew is dramatically superior to 1, and teleporters from the start means you're getting great scrap rewards - even if it's awkward with the Healing Burst. Utilize movement tricks to lure the pilot away from the cockpit as needed to ensure your Healing Bombs have a 100% chance to hit (likewise, move your pilot away when firing on your own ship).
Also, don't underestimate how crazy good the Breach I and Dual Lasers are on the Man-O-War - even if you change your plan towards not using the Bio Beam, these are very strong weapons even late game.
Important distinction - my tier list is in no way meant to indicate how easy a ship is to play. My tier list is a rough measure of the overall power level and chance of success with a given ship when played expertly. If I was rating on difficulty to play well, The Nesasio would certainly be lower for example - Stealth A isn't bad but you need some experience/skill to play it at a level where that's true.
Cragspyder wrote:I am surprised to see the Noether above the Adjudicator, especially TWO tiers above it. I just don't see how no normal shields and a Pike Beam is that much stronger then 1 layer of shields and a Halberd Beam. But I don't have a lot of experience in the Zoltan ships.
Like The Torus, the Noether has the equipment to bypass any number of shield bubbles right from the start - this is quite powerful indeed. Combining those Dual Ion Blast 1s with essentially any weapon is powerful - your starting Pike Beam does good work, but later finding a Halberd, lasers, or anything else can combo well too.
That said, I was somewhat unsure on the placement; I could easily see dropping it to mid Tier 2, because it should have more problems with early Drones than anything else save the DA-SR 12. In general it's rated highly and I've always had good runs with it myself, so it may feel a little better than it is in reality.
As for the Adjudicator - it does nothing well and also has weaknesses. It has a crappy boarding crew, and the only way it can bypass Tier 2 shields is by using the crappy Leto - good that the option is there, but it's still a crappy option. It also starts pretty ill-equipped in general - level 1 engines, average level 3 weapons, and Zoltan crew replacing normal power -- which is a fair bit worse until your reactor is capped at the very end of the game. The Zoltan shield and doors are nice and do mostly cover what would be the other major weakness - boarders. They can still be a definite nuisance, though.
Cragspyder wrote:I don't think Torus deserves to be above the Osprey. Osprey has better crew, roughly the same amount of blue options, and probably just as easy of an early game if not easier. And the Osprey is still fine against 2 shield ships wheras the Torus theoretically might struggle if the Ion Blast II starts to miss. Not to mention the Torus can run out of drone parts.
Osprey does have better crew for sure - boarding party ready to go. I disagree with the rest, though - BL2 is an amazing weapon, but it's only average speed - you'll be hit by Artemis, Leto, or enemy lasers before you have any hope of taking their weapons down. Meanwhile, The Torus has a random element with the Anti-Ship, but it can potentially take down weapons before they ever fire - especially against early opposition. You can also ionize weapon systems for this effect too.
I'd also say the BL2 is going to struggle against Tier 2 shields a lot more than Ion II + AS will. Both have to hit 3 times in a row to bypass the shields, but once the Ion gets their the AS can start going to town, while the BL2 probably did 1 damage to shields and then has to wait another 10.8s to fire again. The Ion 3 also has the subtle advantage of leveling your weapons officer much more quickly.
The Osprey has the Artillery Beam, of course, but even with a 2nd level you're looking at a 40s cooldown - enough time for most enemy weaponry to fire 3 full volleys (and most larger missiles to fire two). That's a lot of hull damage you're taking before it goes off.
Drone parts are a possible concern, though you should remain in parity or positive when only using one drone, especially if you take appropriate surrenders. The Torus is also ready to roll with a defense drone if you find one, while The Osprey needs to buy the system and get a Defense Drone (usually) - and it doesn't have the option of cloaking at all.
Cragspyder wrote:Shivan has such a strong early game and transitions so well into boarding.
It's possible I rate the Shivan a tad low; people in general tend to rate it very very highly. I personally think the Fire Bomb + Rock boarders is rather overrated (though still useful). It also has no door system and a poor ship layout, meaning boarders can still be a nuisance and fires even worse (while Rockmen don't take damage from fire, they also don't put them out faster than normal; Engi are still much better at fire management).
That said, it does have solid boarders to start, and it has a very strong laser to roll with until you can buy teleporters. The speed of the laser means you're still generally going to eat small missiles but you can avoid most slower threats, such as Burst Laser 2s or bigger missiles, and it has a solid fire/breach chance to boot.
Overall I feel people tend to rate the Shivan too highly, but I could still be underrating it slightly as well.
Cragspyder wrote:I don't think the Nesasio deserves to be so high. Four engines is great and all but the cloak is weak, the weapons are weak, and the crew is weak. It is just so vulnerable to bad luck and what were normally trivial ships (Dual beam Rebel Rigger, anyone?) can end the game instantly for you.
The Nesasio is my favorite ship - I wanted to put it even higher because it can do great work when played well, but it does still have major flaws that bring it down. First, though: The cloak is very very strong, and the weapons are also very strong early on (Dual Lasers are super strong late too, but a little awkward with the 3 weapon slots). The crew does suck and it had some issues, but they are vastly overstated in my experience.
An early Rigger with a Beam Drone and a Mini-Beam equipped is honestly not something that scares me too much - it's completely different from the DA-SR 12 and is absolutely not an instant game over. I expect to take about 4 damage from that situation on average, though sometimes it'll go badly and I'll take more. The keys are a) set your Dual Lasers to slot 1, b) time your cloaking carefully, and c) fire your weapons carefully. If weapons fail, your FTL should be charging and you can generally jump away.
And beyond drones, you can avoid nearly all damage early on with The Nesasio with your cloaking. Learning weapon timing - e.g., if they have both a Heavy Laser and a Basic Laser, don't cloak right when they fire the HL - wait just until the BL fires and you can avoid both with the same cloak.
See http://www.twitch.tv/darktwinge/c/2338542 for a video demonstrating some of these tips.
As I said, it does still have definite problems - the crew is weak, and having only 3 weapon slots is a major drawback. But it's actually really strong early in most cases and can use that early strength to buy up those shields, cloaking levels, etc. to keep you alive through the mid game.
Cragspyder wrote:I suggest just re-amalgamating these into one tier. Maybe you really hate the Vortex but I really hate the DA-SR 12, so we might as well put all three of them in the crap tier and leave it at that.
As I mentioned, I can easily see putting the Stealth B on the same level as The Vortex - it has some *major* problems. I feel these problems aren't quite as drastic on average (though they do rely on playing the DA-SR 12 well), but I'm not certain of this.
Cragspyder wrote:Honestly, if I had to edit your tierlist, I would go:
Tier 1: Basilisk, Carnilian
Tier 2: Bravais, Osprey, Shivan, Red-Tail, Torus, Noether
Tier 3: Gila Monster, Adjudicator, Kestrel
Tier 4: Bulwark, Nisos, Nesasio, Man-O-War
Tier 5: Stormwalker, DA-SR-12, Vortex
The Stormwalker isn't on the same level as The Vortex. It has major issues too, but 3 crew is dramatically superior to 1, and teleporters from the start means you're getting great scrap rewards - even if it's awkward with the Healing Burst. Utilize movement tricks to lure the pilot away from the cockpit as needed to ensure your Healing Bombs have a 100% chance to hit (likewise, move your pilot away when firing on your own ship).
Also, don't underestimate how crazy good the Breach I and Dual Lasers are on the Man-O-War - even if you change your plan towards not using the Bio Beam, these are very strong weapons even late game.
Cragspyder wrote:I imagine a lot of this will be personal preference anyways, but it might be useful for other players to see how difficult a new ship will be to play, relatively.
Important distinction - my tier list is in no way meant to indicate how easy a ship is to play. My tier list is a rough measure of the overall power level and chance of success with a given ship when played expertly. If I was rating on difficulty to play well, The Nesasio would certainly be lower for example - Stealth A isn't bad but you need some experience/skill to play it at a level where that's true.
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BKT
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Re: Ship Tier List [SPOILERS]
Twinge wrote:It's possible I rate the Shivan a tad low; people in general tend to rate it very very highly. I personally think the Fire Bomb + Rock boarders is rather overrated (though still useful). It also has no door system and a poor ship layout, meaning boarders can still be a nuisance and fires even worse (while Rockmen don't take damage from fire, they also don't put them out faster than normal; Engi are still much better at fire management).
That said, it does have solid boarders to start, and it has a very strong laser to roll with until you can buy teleporters. The speed of the laser means you're still generally going to eat small missiles but you can avoid most slower threats, such as Burst Laser 2s or bigger missiles, and it has a solid fire/breach chance to boot.
Overall I feel people tend to rate the Shivan too highly, but I could still be underrating it slightly as well.
I don't even buy Telepad, yet I still rated Shivan the best ship!
And if you're wondering how on earth did I rated it higher than the 4x Telepad ships (namely, Mantis and Crystal B) ... Well, actually that is not the case— it's not that I rated Shivan higher than those 2, but those 2 are simply unrated and are not included in my Tier list.