sM Polish Kit: Insurrection v1.6 [CE Support + Modules]

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Sleeper Service
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Re: The sM Polish Kit 1.3 for AE [CE Support + Modules]

Postby Sleeper Service » Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:03 pm

slowriderxcorps wrote:A two power, four damage missile, I think it's called the Ares Missile in CE but is named the Apollo Missile in the patch. Given that the two-power player Hermes isn't a part of basic CE, the fact that there's a missile that costs less power yet deals more damage is ridiculous, especially when enemies can use it, and because of its lower power requirement they'll use it just as often as Artemis missiles. I understand that the charge time being identical to the Breach Missile is part of the reasoning why it's two power, but I personally don't agree with it. In addition to the whole Player Hermes thing, the CE patch makes this weapon a three-power weapon with a noticeably faster charge time, about 18 seconds.

I fail to see what is so ridiculous about that. Missiles are universally regarded as the worst weapon category and the CE Ares adds a solid hight-tier bread and butter missile to counteract that notion a little more. The fact that it costs two power does make it much less of a threat that the fact that it costs two power. You lowering the cool-down actually makes it much more of a thread in my opinion. As you mentioned, you changed it according to your personally opinion. That what the kit for CE boils down to in my opinion. You have a different opinion on how things should be balanced and tell everyone that you opinion is the superior one whenever CE is mentioned. :(
slowriderxcorps wrote:@Totalbiscuit As the author of the only mod out there that attempts to balance that thing, I'm curious as to your reception of CE.


slowriderxcorps wrote:Fully-automatic lasers. These have been rebalanced in core CE numerous times, but ultimately in the wrong direction. They were initially designed as shield-suppression weapons, but their rate of fire is ultimately too slow for them to work acceptably in that role, so in the patch, their fire rate was increased, for 4 seconds on the two-power Mark 1 and 3 for the three-power Mark 2.

I don't think you take into account how fast those get with fully trained weapon crew and stacked reloader (more easy to aquire in CE due to engineering options). Then again the CE ones are already almost as fast as yours anyway (5 and 3.5 seconds). :roll:

slowriderxcorps wrote:* Light Lasers. About the only weapon class that eventually got changed entirely in purpose in the patch, it's also been altered countless times in basic CE in order to increase their usefulness, mostly regarding their shield-piercing capacity. Initially, the only thing I could do, aside from increasing penetration, was to simply make the weapons of the highest rarity so they simply wouldn't get in the way of much more useful weapon drops, as they are essentially super-nerfy Anti-Bio Beam-like weapons, something so incredibly niche that it rarely gets used outside of the Man Of War. The weapon rarity changes were effected across the board to improve the loot pool, if I recall. Now though, I made a strange decision and completely rewired what they do. In exchange for the weakening of the shield piercing to the original levels, the weapons also deal system damage, turning them into laser-based Small Bombs essentially, able to shut down ships without damaging the hull. I don't think the Light Laser drones have been retired to do this though.. I'll need to check that.

Here I fail to see why you believe that this category has so little use. They provide an accessible, economic way to give ships crew kill capabilities, which offers tremendous economic advantages. The damage output of the mid and high tiers (mark III's and the light artillery) can easily be on par with the bio beam and they are also more versatile than the beam in the early game due to their shield piercing.
Further, however rarity truly works exactly, giving them 5 rarity will most likely just make them appear instead of other hight rarity weapons, essentially still preventing the player from getting "better" weapons anyway.

slowriderxcorps wrote:Micro-Missile Batteries. Okay, I guess these were altered significantly as well, and for the longest time these were by far the biggest criticism of CE balance, so much that they were completely changed in base CE.. to the point of being quite pointless. They were meant to be missiles that sacrificed a little of their ability to damage ship systems in order to be capable of slipping past Tier 1 Defense Drones without being shot at. Unfortunately, the result of this was that they resulted in being a total menace for practically every single player ship throughout their journey, as there was simply no reliable method of defending against them outside of Cloaking, since the more affordable Tier 2 Defense Drones had a charge time too slow to really be worth using in the first place, and their high damage-power ratio meant they racked up the hull points at an alarming rate. Even the mighty MantisB was considered to be one of the worst ships to face CE with simply because it couldn't do anything about them. The other massive problem they had was that they were classified as Lasers in the game code so that they could evade the drones. This was the only way it could be done before Advanced Edition came out, and the means to make Missile-class weapons invisible to simple drones is now available. But they're still classified as Lasers and because of the way FTL chooses weapons for enemies to spawn with, favouring lasers over missiles and never having missile-only builds unless the ship had only 1 level in Weapons.. they show up A LOT.

The larges part of this paragraph concerns itself with things that no longer matter. Swarms where pretty great in enemy hands, now they are pretty bad overall. That has become their place by design, but they still remain pretty economic and fast overall, and appear much more useful when you realize that often one system damage can be all that matters.
Also they don't show up disproportionally anymore in CE, this was counteracted via double entries in weapon lists. As far as I know you simply changed their type to MISSILES. That solution depraved them of their animated projectiles (at last as far as I can tell those still don't work for MISSILES type). So you threw hours of my spriting work out of the window there.

slowriderxcorps wrote:That's a long enough spiel as-is, but I'm not even finished yet. Before AE came out, I had taken to trying to rebalance these weapons by reducing their shield piercing capacity significantly down to 2, while making enemy variants more costly to run. The result of this is that they were still very threatening in the early game, but once you got a third shield layer running on your ship you now had a semi-reliable Defense against them, since they can still quite easily sneak in amidst a volley of laser or drone fire. It also gave the weapons a more unique feel and purpose as a hull-damaging weapon. However in basic CE now, they're simply normal missiles with lower power requirements, less system damage and a vulnerability to all Defense drones. To be honest, they've taken a massive grace-fall.

At least CE swarm missiles still pierce all shields. In my opinion you just devaluated the weakest CE missiles even further.

slowriderxcorps wrote:Stealth Missiles. I'll bring them up while on the topic of missiles just to throw that they had a power requirement increase in order to balance the fact that they are unassailable missiles that deal their full damage to systems, unlike the micro missiles.

Again I believe that there should be overall better missiles to strengthen this weapon category. I'm also overall ok with stronger missiles in enemy hands, cause harsher game is part of the premise of CE.

slowriderxcorps wrote:Scattershot Weapons. Particularly the Heavy Laser ones. In core CE, they are quite simply nerfy Heavy Lasers with no real benefit to using them when the other is an option. In the patch, they take upon the role of an anti-hull weapon, dealing pretty severe damage to armour but dealing reduced damage to systems. In addition, adding to the 'feel' of some weapons, every weapon that fires in a scatter fashion including the micro missiles had their shot speed reduced slightly, making them more unique to fire.

In my opinion that just dilutes the category and removes contrast. Not everything has to be as powerful as the rest. BLI is has no benefit in using when a BLII is available, but that does not mean that BLI has to become better. And again, sometimes often one sys damage is all that matters. In comparison Heavy Scatter one is slightly faster than Heavy I, so it actually has a partly advantage.
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Re: The sM Polish Kit 1.3 for AE [CE Support + Modules]

Postby slowriderxcorps » Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:53 pm

I guess my inability to throw words about without messing up in an unfortunate fashion has failed me again. Okay, let's give this a follow-up.

In regards to the missiles, part of the decision simply boils down to an opinion of mine regarding the effective damage output of a weapon when it fires to its power consumption, regardless of how long it takes to charge (with the awkward exception of Artillery weapons which are their own little thing). To my weary vision, four damage for two power on an explosive weapon is too much. It's this reason why some weapons in the basic kit were altered from their base FTL forms since they fell into this category (Ion Bomb, Flak II).

I guess I didn't take the ease of being able to stack Reloaders into account in regards to the automatic lasers, but I'll stand by their current formation for the time being.

As for the Light weapons, it's a difficult thing to truly get right. Anti-Personnel weapons are awkward in that by running one, you are effectively locking your ship out of a weapon slot in most scenarios where such abilities are impractical (auto-scouts and anything with a powerful Medbay that you simply cannot blow up). I guess that the whole breaching capacity that they have is of some sort of use in the first scenario, and the new systems in Advanced Edition can assist on the other.

On the whole Weapon Rarity thing, I believe I tested this a fair while back. If memory serves me right (and I hope it's still doing so), then weapons with Rarity 5 essentially get one entry into the loot pool for a given sector, while Rarity 1 grants more entries (possibly five). I'm thinking this is how it rolls, since way back in the development of the AWM. I had initially had every new weapon set at Rarity 5, and on testing the frequency of how often those weapons dropped, it was well over 50% of the time. I guess the game didn't take kindly to 100+ weapon entries suddenly forcing themselves upon the pool.

I did remember something about the whole Missiles projectile situation, yes. For whatever reason, the missile projectile files are such that they have to point up in order to appear properly, while Lasers have to point to the right. I was also somehow oblivious to the duplicate entry fix to the issue, it seems.. I'll add that to the To Investigate list. I completely understand the whole not wishing to redo all the projectiles to fit the Missile format, although I believe I did manage to sort that out myself. I remember it being a major pain to get right, too..

I'll have to put some more thought into the Swarm balancing, but without their ability to evade the simple Defense drones, it's tricky to justify their place in the scheme of things.

And somehow I ended up forgetting the fact that cooldowns on the core CE scatter lasers had been tweaked in recent times. I could have sworn they still charged 1 second slower than their standard Heavy Laser equivalent.

Sorry for, well, typing up something that ended up making myself look like some kind of knowitall when it comes to game balance. Everyone has their own perspective on what is and isn't good, and pretty much the defining trait of that in the basic kit is the Flak II being entirely different to vanilla. If memory serves right though, at least my perspective on a CE rebalance isn't simply 'remove 90%+ of the things it adds', as the quote went.

On a different topic, progress on the reworking of StealthC. The good news is that I somehow managed to come up with an idea involving all three Stealth Cruiser graphics that allowed me to make a reworked Type C.

Original StealthC
Remastered StealthC
Original StealthB for shadow comparison

The bad news is.. well, it kind of looks rather dull. I'm trying to figure out what I could do to buff this out.
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Re: The sM Polish Kit 1.3 for AE [CE Support + Modules]

Postby R4V3-0N » Thu Nov 27, 2014 2:48 am

I think peoples perspective on true 'balance' is different.
As well as people taking a weapon that is made by someone else and altering it to what they think it should be with possibility off not having the information of what the person who made it had in mind for it.

I think there is balance in unbalance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w

This video explains it a bit.

Also I doubt everything in FTL is made so that everything is equal in firepower...

We do have the fact the Federation is a bit poop at technology currently and the Rebels are using the top of the line technology to kill you. (Stealth, Teleporters, better weapons, energy shields, etc)

So I expect some stuff having a better advantage and disadvantage with rarity and economy being the main thing making it not pointless.
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Re: The sM Polish Kit 1.3 for AE [CE Support + Modules]

Postby Skaudus » Mon Dec 01, 2014 1:51 pm

Hello! I seem to have an issue with, I believe, the AWM, in that there are apparently some missing files.

Code: Select all

The sM Polish Kit for Advanced Edition
Ship Greebles for sMPK
The Augmented Weapons Module for sMPK
AWM Showcase Ships for sMPK


The game itself will run, but if I try to open the AWM ships in Superluminal, I get this error:

Code: Select all

PLAYER_SHIP_JELLY_2 could not be loaded:

IllegalArgumentException: Artillery - WeaponBlueprint not found: BA_ARTILLERY_SLUG_B


The same errors appear if I open them with Insurrection & co. installed (opening the Insurrection ships works just fine, though).

Are there indeed missing files or is it just Superluminal being moody?

Thanks a bunch!
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Re: The sM Polish Kit 1.3 for AE [CE Support + Modules]

Postby slowriderxcorps » Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:31 pm

Looking at this, the issue is with the Showcase Ships mod, which appears to be running some kind of setup based on an older build of CE's artillery, allowing it to be used with CE without dropping the ability to run artillery weapons. However, it won't work with Insurrections artillery since they used different IDs.. To be honest, I had forgotten all about this ship module entirely. I'll get to work on seeing if I can fix it, but for now, I've got more pressing issues to investigate.

In today's round of work, I've gone through a complete reinvesting action of every event, fixing some glaring wording errors and rewards along the way. Sadly, an interesting idea I had for silently buffing some scrap rewards by a set amount using both a standard Reward line and an Item Modify section didn't give me the result I was hoping for.. That should now be up. However, I'm continuing to press onwards regardless, looking into the CE patch with newfound knowledge as a result of my inability to conversate properly.

EDIT: One pass through the CE weapons list later.. It would seem that the list alterations that were made in order to reduce the appearance rate of Swarm missiles was indeed made. Partially. The way it works would be to duplicate every non-Swarm weapon in the list, theoretically halving their appearance rate. Unfortunately, the change wasn't entirely put into effect, with the MANTIS, FED, ZOLTAN, AI, ANAEROBIC, CORP_LEATHAL, ROCK_BARGE and JELLY_HUNTER not equipping duplicate lists (and on a side note, for the full-power stealth missiles, the JELLY and FED_HUNTER lists are also not duped). At the very least, these weapon lists have now been sorted out in regards to the kit version of CE, and this now also opens up the ability to further improve the AWM for CE with its own set of enemy weapon spawns (for some reason, that was omitted from that patch only).
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Re: The sM Polish Kit 1.31 for AE [CE Support + Modules]

Postby Flypaste » Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:29 am

I've played 6 runs, one beating the flagship, and have not encountered any augmented weapons.
I followed and re-followed the installation instructions, even went into the game myself to look for discrepancies, but to no avail.
I've been forced to turn to you for you. Here's my load order: http://puu.sh/ddEzR/9786215580.png
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Re: The sM Polish Kit 1.31 for AE [CE Support + Modules]

Postby slowriderxcorps » Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:15 am

Instant problem detection. Insurrection and CE were not designed to be run in tandem: choose one or the other and not both, and that'll solve some major issues right away. Apart from that, VindicatorAnimated is redundant as it is part of the Alpha part of the kit by default. For the AWM, again, only choose either the I or CE addition depending on what TC you're running, but good to see the main AWM in play as well, that's something I was expecting not to see on.

Aside from those.. everything else seems okay? There's a lot of mod files in play, and I'm not as familiar with all of them as I had hoped. At the very least, I don't think most of them interfere with the weapon spawns for each sector, which is really the main issue you've described.
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Re: The sM Polish Kit 1.31 for AE [CE Support + Modules]

Postby Flypaste » Tue Dec 02, 2014 10:27 pm

I disabled Insurrection and all is good. I was using it mostly just for the new weapons it adds. Will there be a standalone version in the future?

I'm also finding the rarity of the augmented weapons on the enemy ships a bit low, is there a simple way to make them less common? I'm very capable of doing it myself.
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Re: The sM Polish Kit 1.31 for AE [CE Support + Modules]

Postby slowriderxcorps » Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:44 pm

To be fair, most of the stuff in Insurrection is in CE as well in some form or another.

As for the rarity of AWM weapons on enemies.. Right now, on the CE side of the AWM this feature is currently not implemented, I must have ended up forgetting about it. I have been working when I can to try and add it, but it's proving to be a bit tedious/time-consuming. If all goes to plan, I might be able to get that sorted out sometime tomorrow.
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Re: The sM Polish Kit 1.31 for AE [CE Support + Modules]

Postby Flypaste » Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:24 am

wow! That's some pretty terrific timing! Another thing I've noticed is that I'm encountering the event that gives an advanced, free augmented weapon quite often - two runs in a row at the 3rd sector's exit beacon on normal. Is this intended? Or another compatibility issue with CE?

I'd also like to know what the deal is with the Flagship in your banner with a Fed colour scheme?

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