FTL Captain's Edition 1.308/Inf 1.301b/EL 1.308

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Mr. Mister
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Re: FTL Captain's Edition 1.099

Postby Mr. Mister » Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:38 pm

Estel has a point: while it might be a paint in the ass for you to implement (given that you would hafve to make their own event list), it would make sense for those external influences to vary between sector types.

Hell, pirate sectors could maybe speciallize in surrenders: put a chance of you accepting (and adhering to) an enemy surrender having a surprise enemy crew member asking if he could join your team, as he's had it with those crustlubbers.
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Sleeper Service
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Re: FTL Captain's Edition 1.099

Postby Sleeper Service » Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:31 pm

Estel wrote:1. Is it intentional, that treacherous slugs don't accept slavery? I can imagine that this may be part of characterizing factions (rocks - piracy only, mantises - piracy and slavery, slugs - piracy and breaking truces), but such caring it sounded quite strange for our slimy pals. (Severity: Medium or "It's a feature")


There is nothing in the lore indicating that Slugs are directly into slavery. Unless you acknowledge the oppression that capitalism subjects people to, which they are obviously very much into. To me, it feels like "Slug culture"(if something like that that actually could be defined, they are all induviduals, you know? ;) ) would rather shackle people in contracts and loan pay than in, well, actual shackles.

Also its part of the balance.

Estel wrote:2. No matter if point #1 is a bug or not, you can't break truce, after accepting slave as tribute. Letting those slaving bastards go freely, made me a sad snail's captain.

Here is list of other situations, where breaking truces wasn't possible, despite that it should:
a) After accepting trading cargo as surrender tribute from "pirated" merchant.
b) After fight with pirate trap-shop and accepting their surrender, there isn't option to break truce and finish them. Well, currently, due to bug #3 the truce is automatically broken no matter which ship we command (after accepting surrender, fights continue), but I guess it isn't how it meant to be.
(Severity: Medium)


This is to provide some kind of narrative coherency and also for balance reasons. Again there are plenty of moments in the game when not all options you could think of are available. CE does no try to give you all options you could think of.

Estel wrote:3. Shop-trap in pirate sector - as someone reported earlier - is a little broken, now. After climatic event text - and catching a glimpse of enemy ship on "Target" section of screen, already - ship window *still* opens, with normal shop content (contrary to what event text says, about useless derelict parts). Then, after closing shop window, we can fight pirate. His surrender is broken as per part b) of bug #2. (Severity: Major)


Well right, that ship should not be there from the start. Apart from that the event kind of explains that you are already in the store, at which you are informed about the ship and asked to return to your command. So you get a chance to look at the store and then fight the ship. The event obviously does not transport that well yet. This is kind of as close as we will get to a real shop ambush though. At last if you want to have the shop tag on the map, that requires the shop being spawned in the first event lvl as far as I remember.

Estel wrote:4.Have you changed anything about when enemy surrenders, or was it always at 2 hull left, and I just haven't noticed it before Slug surrender-forcing run?

BTW, I've noticed that you've introduced small chance, that breaking truce won't be possible (for various event-text reasons). Frankly, after looong fight, during which I've been very carefully planning and executing tactic to force surrender (then accepting and finishing them off), it felt quite penalizing. Still, if chances for it happening are relatively small (it seemed so during my run), it's OK - especially, that flavor texts are nice and it *almost* never felt out of place.


Wow, you noticed that? Yeah, it's possible for surrender to be called with one hull less now. The chance of breaking truce being impossible is indeed small. Pirate authorities will be disposed of.

Estel wrote:6. Dual laser Mark II is downgrade from Mark I. They do same damage and have same characteristics (unless description lies), the only difference is that Mark II shots every 8 seconds (as opposed to Mark I's 10 seconds) and it cost *two* energy bars instead of one. To be real upgrade, Mark II it should either cost still 1 bar (it would be, then, negligible upgrade of 8 sec vs 10 sec), or, at worst case, their names and prices should get swapped. That is, Mark II becoming Mark I and vice-versa - Mark I is plain better for all intents and purposes. (Severity: Minor)


Yep, severity: minor. Weapon marks seem often little determined by power effectiveness. Even Heavy II is less power efficient than it's MK I. (Maybe vanilla BL 3 should become BL 2 then...) Dual Lasers Mark I is not available to buy anyway and MK II is still as good as BL2 by DPS per power ratio. So IMO it deserves to be a MK II.

Estel wrote:7. There is this empty-beacon event, where you meet a small fleet of engi ships, threatening us because "piracy have negative impact on social" something, and "Can't be permitted". I think there should be option to, well, pirate them ;)

I'm just thinking, hoever - last time, I've also reported empty-beacon type situation (engi ships that refuses hail), and changelog claims that you've introduced pirating option there. I'm wondering, if doing this won't result in making *less* empty beacons in galaxy, hindering player's possibility to socialize/engineer/etc? Or you have done something to keep chances for encountering empty beacons intact? (Severity: Minor)


These are text spawned drawn from the empty beacon textlist. I merely transferred them to the textlist for transport ships. Does not effect overall occurrence of empty beacons, but slightly decreases the variety of available texts for empty beacons.

This kind of leads to the question if the civilian transport encounters maybe should count as empty beacons as well...
Last edited by Sleeper Service on Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ikeelyou300
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Re: FTL Captain's Edition 1.099

Postby ikeelyou300 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:43 pm

I'm glad you made it so that Slugs can't enslave people without consequence. Slugs are the most human like creatures in my opinion. ;) But it seems that they are all "slimey" whereas people have diverse views so not everyone would agree with your actions. Besides balance reasons it just makes sense. Slugs don't seem to care about things like the interstellar rules of engagement treaty. They live in their nebulas isolated from everyone else.
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Estel
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Re: FTL Captain's Edition 1.099

Postby Estel » Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:34 pm

Sleeper Service wrote:There is nothing in the lore indicating that Slugs are directly into slavery. Unless you acknowledge the oppression that capitalism subjects people to, which they are obviously very much into. To me, it feels like "Slug culture"(if something like that that actually could be defined, they are all induviduals, you know? ;) ) would rather shackle people in contracts and loan pay than in, well, actual shackles.

Also its part of the balance.


ikeelyou300 wrote:I'm glad you made it so that Slugs can't enslave people without consequence. Slugs are the most human like creatures in my opinion. ;) But it seems that they are all "slimey" whereas people have diverse views so not everyone would agree with your actions. Besides balance reasons it just makes sense. Slugs don't seem to care about things like the interstellar rules of engagement treaty. They live in their nebulas isolated from everyone else.


Not that my opinion matters much ;) but agreed and agreed (minus the "most human" parts, but it's subjective - for me, Slugs are quite an extreme, with rocks and zoltans presenting 2 opposite aspects of human nature). For some reason, I was very surprised by that (first thought: bug), but the more time passes, the more appropriate it seems. I really like how characterized factions become.

Sleeper Service wrote:
Estel wrote:2. No matter if point #1 is a bug or not, you can't break truce, after accepting slave as tribute. Letting those slaving bastards go freely, made me a sad snail's captain.


This is to provide some kind of narrative coherency and also for balance reasons. Again there are plenty of moments in the game when not all options you could think of are available. CE does no try to give you all options you could think of.


Frankly, I fail to see the point here. Whats is coherent, when I can accept surrender and goods from almost everyone, but can't attack slaver after freeing/putting to work on my ship a slave that their offer as surrender? I can perfectly assume, that all factions (maybe except zoltans) would be quite happy to break truce here, board and kill all slavers on their ship (possibly freeing whole transport), or - a little less - with breaking them to pieces and ending slaving proceeder. Slavers seems to be lowest in the moral pyramid of FTL society, it seems from the lore.

Now, I understand that this can't happen for all factions due to balance reasons. But, slugs, that actually have "breaking truces" as a "perk", should be perfectly able to do so, IMO. Getting two crew members from single event would be *very* rare anyway, and I - again - fail to see where it would break the balance. Especially, considering how much work forcing surrenders take, and how random result is. Balance aside, it would, for sure, feel more coherent re narration (and less confusing for Slug captains, especially ones doing run for the first time ;) ).


Sleeper Service wrote:Well right, that ship should not be there from the start. Apart from that the event kind of explains that you are already in the store, at which you are informed about the ship and asked to return to your command. So you get a chance to look at the store and then fight the ship. The event obviously does not transport that well yet. This is kind of as close as we will get to a real shop ambush though. At last if you want to have the shop tag on the map, that requires the shop being spawned in the first event lvl as far as I remember.


I think I got misunderstood here - enemy's ship wasn't visible from the start, it spawned just after/during (can't say for sure) event text, when first mate tell us about detecting pirate ship and asking us to move our ass into position - that's why I've said that we "caught a glimpse" of it |(just when the store was about to open). So, everything is fine here. Unless you meant it to appear after we close store, but it may be hard to achieve and IMO not worth bothering.

About the rest, fair enough, it sounds logical. What was misleading, was that event text suggested that things in this shop are totally useless, so I assumed I won't get shop event - this one might need a little tweaking for narrative coherency (i.e., we may "get impression, that sellers are suspiciously apathetic, it almost feel like they're not interested in selling their goods", or something like that, instead).

Now, what *is* definitely broken - for all factions - is that after pirate surrender ("you shouldn't be fighting in protected trade space", etc) and transfer goods, fight *doesn't* stop and we may finish him off. Slugs or not Slugs. Which lead to the point that - if you fix it (and if fix is possible at all) it may need to implement breaking truce for slugs, too, or it will become another event where slugs treacherous coherency is broken ;)

Sleeper Service wrote:Wow, you noticed that? Yeah, it's possible for surrender to be called with one hull less now. The chance of breaking truce being impossible is indeed small. Pirate authorities will be disposed of.


Yea, and I like it. Now, it really requires *very* careful planning, if one is aiming for most profitable (most of the times) scenario of forcing surrender + killing crew. It is risky for boarders, as ship may get torn apart by sneaky fires. It require constant awareness of what our guns are marked at, and exactly what enemy crew is doing. 2/3 of times, I ended such fights with exactly 1 hull for enemy ship, so my boarding party really lived "on the edge". So, summing up all those things, one need to be really at 100% combat awareness during whole fight, so even such details as reduced surrendero-hull (;) ) are grasped instantly ;)

Summing it up, great work on making forcing surrender-breaking truces so intense, hard, and rewarding now. It really makes every fight as NON monotonous as it gets (not that fights in CE are monotonous otherwise , but you know what I mean). I think Slug ships will be my favorite, for a while. Even, despite that my awesome run was ended by battleship at his last three hull points :twisted:

Sleeper Service wrote:These are text spawned drawn from the empty beacon textlist. I merely transferred them to the textlist for transport ships. Does not effect overall occurrence of empty beacons, but slightly decreases the variety of available texts for empty beacons.

This kind of leads to the question if the civilian transport encounters maybe should count as empty beacons as well...


If civilian transport encounters may be empty beacons *and* pirating possibility at the same time, why not. But, it may hit the evasive border of "FTL isn't going to present you with every imaginable choice at every situation". I think that empty beacons may as well remain empty, and civilians as "wasted" or "to be pirated", depending on faction we're playing. Such things as putting engis/traders into "I'll pirate you" basket just adds to narrative coherency, thats why I'm reporting even such minor things :)

Unless it's really not much work and doesn't pose any problems - because, indeed, when playing non-pirating faction, meeting those civilians is quite sad ("Hell, I'm not gonna risk my crew members to pirate some stinkin' trader, but I would very much like to, as sucker just prevented me from producing drone parts, and I'm already on the last one!").

Cheers,
/Estel
Last edited by Estel on Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sleeper Service
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Re: FTL Captain's Edition 1.099

Postby Sleeper Service » Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:12 pm

Estel wrote:Unless it's really not much work and doesn't pose any problems - because, indeed, when playing non-pirating faction, meeting those civilians is quite sad ("Hell, I'm not gonna risk my crew members to pirate some stinkin' trader, but I would very much like to, as sucker just prevented me from producing drone parts, and I'm already on the last one!").


Haha, I guess one could make up some meta reasons why production is not possible. Ship present requires everyone to be at general quarters and stuff. Sometimes you're even already busy talking to those guys.

I'm glad that the this totally untested play style works as intended. Have fun screwing people over. :D

Estel wrote:Frankly, I fail to see the point here. Whats is coherent, when I can accept surrender and goods from almost everyone, but can't attack slaver after freeing/putting to work on my ship a slave that their offer as surrender? I can perfectly assume, that all factions (maybe except zoltans) would be quite happy to break truce here, board and kill all slavers on their ship (possibly freeing whole transport), or - a little less - with breaking them to pieces and ending slaving proceeder. Slavers seems to be lowest in the moral pyramid of FTL society, it seems from the lore.

Now, I understand that this can't happen for all factions due to balance reasons. But, slugs, that actually have "breaking truces" as a "perk", should be perfectly able to do so, IMO. Getting two crew members from single event would be *very* rare anyway, and I - again - fail to see where it would break the balance. Especially, considering how much work forcing surrenders take, and how random result is. Balance aside, it would, for sure, feel more coherent re narration (and less confusing for Slug captains, especially ones doing run for the first time ;) ).


Maybe thats just me, but when you accept to save this one slave, that opening fire on the ship where his/her friends are stuck on feels a little bipolar. I guess It depends how everyone sees that. Another reason really was that breaking truce would allow slug ships to get two slaves out of this event with realize ease. The chances of getting two crewmen with this event would actually be pretty high that way (Slavers have an increase surrender chance and crew kills are likely to result in crew) This felt kind of too much of a reward for breaking truce in this event.

Pretty much the same with transport ships. You obviously engage them to pirate their goods. So when they surrender them, it does not all out seem logical to continue fighting them anyway. Breaking truce in this event also could result in two free trade goods from one event for Slug ships, which again, felt kind of too much.

But you are right, it's incoherent with the rest of the events, and does not automatically appear logical. It's just hard to get around the balance issues here, cause surrender end ship death events are always tied to each other in one ship event.
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Estel
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Re: FTL Captain's Edition 1.099

Postby Estel » Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:31 pm

Sleeper Service wrote:But you are right, it's incoherent with the rest of the events, and does not automatically appear logical. It's just hard to get around the balance issues here, cause surrender end ship death events are always tied to each other in one ship event.


Maybe keeping it as it is + some inventive blabla would work here? Something along the lines of "they jettison one-man escape pod, sent spinning randomly into space. Ship systems detect single life-sign inside - indeed, "tribute" is on board. By the time you stabilize and recover pod, slavers are long gone". Generally, something that suggest we need time and effort to retrieve tribute, and enemies use it as chance to escape.

Of course, it wouldn't explain why you can't blown them up and chase pod afterwards, but, it would at least indicate that inability to effectively break truces is intended in this event. so, it would contribute to "player gaining experience" and learning when attempt do break truces, and when don't bother, instead of looking like overlooked/bug. Something similar would work for civilian traders and their cargo too, I think.

Sure, more nervous captains would just blast the rude bastard that plays trick instead of kindly unloading passenger/cargo - even if it would mean losing that poor fella, spinning into escape pod towards gravitational well of planet - but, as you've said, FTL doesn't aim to allow every choice possible, everywhere ;)

/Estel
Ciurrioc
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Re: FTL Captain's Edition 1.099

Postby Ciurrioc » Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:37 am

If I encounter black boxes and erratic graphical backgrounds in the Zoltan event where the planet targets you with its weapons with a Zoltan AI spotter, what would I do? Im not sure if It can be reproduced. same applies to the breach missile, its target reticle is a black box on the enemy ship -_- this is on version 1.099. I possess no mods that add/edit weapons.
Mr. Mister
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Re: FTL Captain's Edition 1.099

Postby Mr. Mister » Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:05 am

On the subject of slaver surrenders: Apart from the outcomes that can lead to him joining your crew anyway, is there any other positive outcome for liberating the slave? Like, maybe you should integrate the outcomes for bringing him to his family (just dropping him in a near station and recieving the payment via credit card) from the vanilla rescue event.
Acceleratio
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Re: FTL Captain's Edition 1.099

Postby Acceleratio » Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:10 am

Wait what... there are ships you can use the pirate option with?
Without risking your crew?
ikeelyou300
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Re: FTL Captain's Edition 1.099

Postby ikeelyou300 » Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:20 am

I like the idea with the pod being jettisoned and requiring you to chase after it. It seems like something pirate slavers would do and I understand what Sleeper was talking about with the balance for that event. And he's it seems morbid killing all the slaves after accepting one. I think the text about the pod should appear if you try to break the truce on this event or it could be a generic "they got away" because I think Sleeper said there's a chance of that happening any time you break a truce.

On another interesting not though... Do you think the Zoltan ship could negotiate the surrender of all the slaves in exchange for a pardon or something?

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